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Burke's World Orders of Knighthood and Merit (CJB need not read)
23 Sep 2006 14:01:09 -0700
alt.talk.royalty
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Guy Stair Sainty...
Bill Kautt...
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Then you clearly know little about publishing. The general editor works
on the topic and brings authors' works together in a coherent manner.
The copy editor's job is spelling, grammar, usage, flow, etc. If there
are problems with a book, the copy editor is the one to blame since the
author or general editor cannot be expected to find _every_ fault in
Jonas Arnell...
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I agree. Somehow there always be a problem with "who watches the
watchmen" which inevitably makes it hard to produce something that is
100% correct. This is, however, a percentage I suspect that all
CJ Buyers...
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Fell into disuse, but was never abolished.
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CJ Buyers...
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Hmm, not a national award?
Joseph McMillan...
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The issue wasn't whether it was a national award...it's whether it is a
national order. There are all kinds of US national honors and
decorations; what there are none of is national orders.
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Perhaps the reference to "The President of the United States" must be a
reference to the President of the Board of Manchester United stating
something!
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CJ Buyers...
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Nobody is talking about that, except you.
Joseph McMillan...
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You're the one who cited the "Order of the Purple Heart."
ghp95134...
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You did ask the question, here it is verbatum:
CJ Buyers wrote on Sat, Sep 23 2006 10:57 pm:
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Are you seriously trying to tell us that Washington's decoration was
never known as the Order of the Purple Heart?
Joseph McMillan...
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Are you seriously trying to tell us that it was? Got any evidence to
that effect?
Joseph McMillan
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contributors and editors have strived for.
The "J'accuse" used by CJB on individual contributions and contributors
which carries the tone that there is, in fact, an individual that can
provide 100% correct information is unfortunate. Why? Firstly because
facts may be interpreted differently - what is 100% for one person
might not be more than 75% for another person. Secondly, it leads from
what should be the main focus, namely the progression of phaleristic
knowledge, to a discussion about who wrote what, why this is included
and why not that. Thirdly, it is also unfortunate, because then it sets
the level of how others rightfully might judge any and all things
published by CJB. Realising this, CJB might refrain from publishing,
which might be a loss for the collective knowledge on orders and
decorations.
Rather to continue a discussion that apparently leads nowhere, isn't it
better that those who have discovered any factual errata submit those
in private to the editors and/or writers so that Burke's can provide an
eventual list for buyers?
On a related matter, the Alliance for Sweden parties won the elections
17/9 over the left-wing parties. There might be a very, very slim
chance for reinstatement of the Swedish state orders for Swedish
citizen.
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the proofs because s/he is looking for larger issues such as missing
sections or photos.
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For those interested, and this excludes no doubt many regulars, it is possible
now to see some pdf files of extracts from Burke's World Orders of Knighthood
A. Gwilliam...
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I'm not sure why I followed the link, since this stuff isn't really of
interest to me. But anyway, I thought I should comment that the
"Contributors" page at least needs copyediting.
For example:
1. The heading "Contributor's Biographies" has an apostrophe in the
wrong place.
2. The introductory paragraph "Please find the biographies [...]" gives
the impression of not having been written by a native speaker of
English.
3. There are countless oddities of this sort:
"Orders of the Royal House of BourbonTwo Sicilies, Savoy,
HapsburgLorraine and BourbonParma"
I'm guessing that the hyphens have gone off for a wander?
4. The following pis to be found within the biographical details for
A. Gwilliam...
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This error is of course in accordance with "Skitt's Law". The third
word should have read "is".
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Pier Felice degli Uberti:
"Co nt r ib u to r Bio g r ap hies"
5. I also found this on another page:
"It founded in the early 18th century by King Augustus II"
Personally, if I were flogging such an expensive work of reference, I'd
want the promotional material to be of the highest quality, as it could
be presumed to be a reflection of the quality of the work itself. I
would cordially suggest that you get the publishers to have someone
proofread as soon as possible the entire site contents as they
currently appear on the 'net.
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mrelliottca...
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The book seems grossly overpriced given the apparent poor quality of so
many of the illustrations. I suppose it might be worth picking up when
it inevitably arrives on the remainder tables.
Guy Stair Sainty...
Dave...
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I hope that the Chicago Public Library will order a copy for their
shelves. It seems unlikely that I'll ever be able to afford one, but it
looks like a great resource. Well done.
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Thank you for this kind comment. but pdfs are necessarily put into a form which
can be viewed without a long download, so if you notice they are small files.
All the illustrations are in fact printed at a resolution of 300 dpi
and if you look at the actual book, to a very high quality. There are some
textual errors in the related promotional texts, done by the publishers, which
will no doubt be corrected.
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viscount2...
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You are being unfair. I received my copy of this excellent publication
last week and was amazed at the scale and scope of the work. It is
magnificent. The book is lavishly illustrated and the photographs are
all of EXCELLENT quality. I suspect that the PDF images uploaded on to
the web page are of a lower resolution to enable speedy download. I
have just checked the same photos in the book and I can tell you that
the printed versions are of a very high quality. Unfortunately this is
the sort of book that you have to actually see and skim through in
order to fully appreciate. It is hard to convey how good it is on a web
page.The paper is of the very highest quality, the photos are extremely
impressive and the scholarship is first rate. This entire work is a
significant achievement and I am sure it will be the definitive guide
for years if not decades to come. Congratulations are due to the
authors, I don't think this work could possibly be bettered.
Tom Wilding / Stephen Stillwell...
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I will be doing the review of this work for the review journal of
Association of College and Research Libraries, a division of the American
Library Association. My mouth is watering. Can't wait to get my copy.
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[Please avert your eyes Mr Buyers, we all know you hate the book]
CJ Buyers...
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"The United States has never instituted a series of national civilian
and military Orders". Anyone hear of the "Order of the Purple Heart"?
ghp95134...
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Your question is couched in such a way to imply the Purple Heart is/was
an Order. Don't be defensive when you are proven wrong -- just take it
on the chin and admit you erred.
CJB:
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ghp95134...
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But I have heard of the fraternal order; My father, grandfather, and
many of my current friends are members. Alas, I never qualified for
membership. I suppose I ought to be happy about that!!
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Joseph McMillan...
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The "Military Order of the Purple Heart" is not a national military
order, or indeed an order at all in the sense the term is used here (in
this group). It is a private association formed for the "protection
and mutual interest" of recipients of the Purple Heart decoration. It
is recognized by the US Department of Veterans Affairs as a "veterans
service organization," just like the American Legion and the Veterans
of Foreign Wars, but it is no more an "order" than the US Boy Scouts'
Order of the Arrow or the Knights of Columbus, and does not pretend to
be.
CJ Buyers...
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One is perfectly aware of that, one was talking about the Purple Heart
instituted by Washington.
Joseph McMillan...
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Was one? And was the "Badge of Military Merit" "an institution, partly
imitated from the mediaeval and crusading orders of military monks, but
generally founded by a sovereign, or prince of high rank, for the
purpose of rewarding service by the conferring of a dignity" (OED,
definition 8)? Or "a society patterned on the knightly fraternities of
the middle ages but typically founded by a sovereign, a prince, or a
national legislature for the conferring of honorary distinction"
(Webster 3rd Intl, definition 3)?
Or was it rather a proto-decoration instituted by the commander of an
army--not a head of state or a national legislature? Would "one" call
the three soldiers who were rewarded with the badge "recipients" of it,
or "members?" Could "one" identify which of the three recipients was
the grand master of the order? Offer any infomation on chapter
meetings? Find a single contemporary official source referring to this
award as an order?
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By the way, what is the sense the term "order" is used here in this
group. Care to present us with the group's definition of an "order"?
Joseph McMillan...
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I don't know that the group defines its terms. Why should it? It's
self description as an organization... formed in 1932 for the
protection and mutual interest of all who have received the decoration"
places it squarely within the bounds of Webster's definition number 5
of the word: "a fraternal society *or other association* of private
character."
Just like the International Order of Odd Fellows, the Benevolent and
Protective Order of Elks, the Order of the Founders and Patriots of
America, the Order of the Eastern Star, and many, many others using
that terminology. Perhaps Mr. Buyers thinks all these private groups
also qualify as national civilian or military orders.
Joseph McMillan
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Joseph McMillan
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"Tajikstan" is that anywhere near Tajikistan?
George Lucki...
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I have always written this country's name as Tadjikistan as it is
closer to the standard Russian pronunciation of ???????????,
though of course in English and French we use the "dj" to represent
"??" (?). In Tajik the name of the country is written in a modified
cyrillic alphabet as ??????????, the letter "?" representing
the sound (?).
Some how I suspect that Mr. Sainty made a typographical error and
nothing more. No grandly planned dastardly plot to deprive the Tajik
people of the second letter "i" that appears in their country's name
when it is written in Latin characters. If you believe otherwise Mr.
"Buyers" please present your conspiracy theory regarding the missing
"i" to the forum as we could use a good laugh.
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pritchard_da...
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I have always written this country's name as Tadjikistan as it is
closer to the standard Russian pronunciation of =D0=A2=D0=B0=D0=B4=D0=B6=D0=
CJ Buyers...
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=D0=B8=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0=D0=BD,
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edespalais...
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hough of course in English and French we use
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edespalais...
pritchard_da...
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ugh of course in English and French we use
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pritchard_da...
=B8=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=81=D1=82=D0=B0=D0=BD,
though of course in English and French we use the "dj" to represent
"=D0=B4=D0=B6" (=CA=A4). In Tajik the name of the country is written in a m=
A. Gwilliam...
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It's a bit of a stretch to assume that others will have a font
installed on their system with non-Russian Cyrillic characters!
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odified
cyrillic alphabet as =D0=A2=D0=BE=D2=B7=D0=B8=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=81=D1=82=D0=BE=
CJ Buyers...
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=BE=D0=BD, the letter "=D2=B6" representing
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edespalais...
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=B8=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=81=D1=82=D0=BE=D0=BD,
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pritchard_da...
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=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=81=D1=82=D0=BE=D0=BD,
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pritchard_da...
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I rarely think about what average people may or may not have on their
computer. An educated person will have these fonts at least available
if not installed. With a name like Gwilliam, would it be fair to
A. Gwilliam...
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How likely do you really think it is that an "educated person" would
sensibly expect to encounter Tajik?! It's hardly a major language by
any stretch of the imagination.
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speculate that you suffer from the age old British phobia of foreign
languages?
StephenP...
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David
CJ Buyers...
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Yes, such a book may just be "completetly" error free!
George Lucki...
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Thanks. There is a bright future for you in the field of proof-reading.
Thanjfully it does not require excellent interpersonal skills.
George Lucki
PS While you caught the typo you may have missed a grammatical error or two
in my reply. :)
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I think you are treading on thin ice there. We Brits do not have a
brilliant track record for foreign languages it is true. However, to
be taken to task about it by someone from a nation that is also not
well known for its language skills, knowledge of world geography or the
possession of passports, could be deemed a bit rich.
Joseph McMillan...
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Stephen,
Your points about Americans' general lack of language skills and
geographic knowledge are entirely fair, but the old argument that our
not possessing passports is a sign of provincialism has always been
misleading. Until after 9/11, US citizens could easily travel 6,000
miles or more without needing a passport--not only all over the US
(including Alaska and Hawaii) but also thoughout all of Canada and the
northern portions of Mexico, as well as to most of the Caribbean
islands and some parts of Central America. Most Americans only needed
passports if they were contemplating intercontinental travel. By
contrast, until relatively recently, a European planning to travel more
than a few hundred kilometers in any direction could expect to be asked
for his passport several times.
I don't have the statistics at hand, but I recall that the number of US
citizens traveling outside the US has slightly exceeded the number of
foreign visitors traveling to the US almost every year since the early
1950s. The numbers are somewhere on the State Department's website, I
believe.
It will be interesting to see what happens to passport statistics in
the EU countries over the next decade or so.
A. Gwilliam...
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I'm not sure if you're asking that in the light of Schengen?
Joseph McMillan...
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Yes, exactly. Perhaps the better way of putting it is what are the
trends in passport statistics in the past decade or so, but the
addition of new EU members means that it would be interesting to watch
the data in coming years as well.
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By the way the font showed up fine on my PC and I even studied Russian
whilst serving in the Royal Navy.
Yours aye
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A. Gwilliam...
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What's particularly amusing about this contemptibly foolish question is
that your surname comes from exactly the same country!
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edespalais...
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One had no font, one does not know what a font is; of course one is not
educated, and being 69 why should one learn .., well one is lazy as
somebody said. May the font replace spinach discussions
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=D0=BD, the letter "=D2=B6" representing
the sound (=CA=A4).
CJ Buyers...
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Hmm. Somehow, I was under the impression that the book was in English,
not modified cyrillic.
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Some how I suspect that Mr. Sainty made a typographical error and
nothing more. No grandly planned dastardly plot to deprive the Tajik
people of the second letter "i" that appears in their country's name
when it is written in Latin characters. If you believe otherwise Mr.
"Buyers" please present your conspiracy theory regarding the missing
"i" to the forum as we could use a good laugh.
CJ Buyers...
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No conspiracy with him, the man is too foolish to be able to carry one
off.
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Guy Stair Sainty...
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In the book this is spelled "Tajikistan" so poor CJB may sleep easily. The error
on the web site was done by the PR people who prepared it who made a handful of
other small errors, easily corrected, but nothing to do with the book.
Of course there are some typographical errors, two missing captions (out of more
than 2000), some wrongly placed images and other small errors which were either
missed in editing or in typesetting. The pedants can focus on these if they wish
I suppose we should be flattered that even when urged not to look, poor CJB
mrelliottca...
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Surely, for such a high price, one could have expected proper editing?
Or is the sloppy editing designed to go with the poor illustrations
(that of the Thistle collar, for just one example, appears to be
reproduced from an innaccurate and poorly printed Victorian postcard,
and not from an actual collar).
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could not resist rushing in (and making a fool of himself over the "Order of"
the Purple Heart).
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"The most ancient royal Order is the Order of the Garter, founded by
King Edward III, and today headed by Queen Elizabeth II". Wow, I didn't
know that.
Interesting facts indeed!
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