Is the UK a Commonwealth Realm?

Since it was first drafted in 2003, the Wikipedia article on Commonwealth
Realms has made a point of stating that the UK is one Commonwealth Realm of
16. This always seemed self-evident to me, and apparently to nearly 4 years
worth of Wikipedia editors, from several countries and a variety of

CJ Buyers...

Sadly there is no such rule in existence on this planet, and nobody
available to enforce it.

I for one would be very interested in seeing the foundation documents
for the UK which define what it is. If so, is it a kingdom, empire or
realm? If it isn't defined as a realm, when do you forsee those
documents being amened by new statutes defining it as a realm, so as to
accord with your peculiar definition as to what Commonwealth states are?

political perspectives. Obviously there are historical differences betewen
the UK and the other Realms, and the royal family resides in Britain, so
there are also operational differences, but my understanding was that the
term applied to all 16 countries because, at least in theory, they were all
now equal in status under the Crown.

A couple of days ago, an objection was raised that the UK is not a
Commonwealth Realm, citing a number of informal references, including the
monarchy's own website, which distinguish it (e.g. by referring to the "the
UK and the 15 Commonwealth Realms"). It has turned out to be quite

CJ Buyers...

I am not sure why such a phrase should necessarily be taken to mean
that the UK was not a Commonwealth Realm, anymore than one would take
it to mean that it wasn't a part of the Commonwealth. What is the
context of the whole sentence and paragraph?

difficult to find a definitive answer to this question. The term
"Commonwealth Realm" appears only once in online Hansard, for example (in a
way that implies the UK is a Commonwealth Realm). So I am writing to find
out whether anyone here can point to an authoritative definition, e..g. in a
declaration of the Commonwealth or a scholarly text on Commonwealth
institutions.

A related question is exactly when, how and why did the term "Dominion" come
to be replaced by "Commonwealth Realm". I started seeing the new term in
the early 1980s, and it seemed to carry that implication of equality of
status, which the term "Dominion" did not, so I suspect it was connected
with repatriation of the Candian and Australian constitutions, which took
place at about that time. But I have never seen, and cannot find online, an
authoritative discussion on the point.

Dos anyone here know the answers to these questions? I am looking for hard
evidence: citations and quotations. Not opinions.

CJ Buyers...

Indeed so. Furthermore, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jamaica also
seems to be of the opinion that that country is also a dominion

As for Ceylon, the above paragraph is obviously written by someone with
very little understanding of the place. I was born there and can assure
anyone who wants to know that anything that went for India, certainly
did not go for Ceylon. Dominion status is exactly what they wanted,
having enjoyed a large measure of self government since 1935. They were
ever willing to equate their status not with disloyal India but with
then "loyal" Australia, New Zealand and Canada. The leader of the
delegation negotiating independence wept at the meeting and promised
that come the next war, little Ceylon would be ahead of all the above
in being the first to contribute troops. Post independence, the first
and second Governor-Generals, the third Chief Justice and the
commanders of the Army, Navy and Air Force were all British. Most were
as pukka as they came, Governor-General Soulbury was all pith helmet,
goose feathers and monacle. The second army commander was an Earl.
Government Ministers attended state functions in court uniform, despite
the seering heat of Colombo. Things were so British after independence
that the Soviet Union blocked membership of the UN, believing that
independence was a sham.

Chris Bennett...

michael james...

Maybe if they had included the word "other" in regards to Commonwealth
Realms things would be more clear.

As to the word Dominion, a friend and I discussed this about a year ago,
and I did some websearch and discovered that constitutionally Canada is
still a 'dominion', people just don't use the term anymore. This is
*not* an opinion, but I don't feel up to finding the source at this time.

What is my opinion is that 'realm' is quite appopriate as it describes
more accurately the political system of Canada, unlike the term dominion
which people used to kowtow to the USA (ref: highschool history class)

Now let's replace governor-general with viceroy. :)

The significance of 1949 is that it is the date of the Declaration of
London, which established the principle that republics could be accepted as

Chris Bennett...

This is flatly wrong. The term "Dominion of Fiji" does not appear in either
the Fiji Independence Act of 1970 or the Fijian Constitution of 1970, both
of which you can read online at
discusses fully in his article how this misconception came about. The term
was used frequently during the debate on Fijian independence to reassure
Fijian chiefs who were concerned about possible Indian domination after
independence. But it was never the official name of the country.

Chris Bennett...

For historical reasons "dominion" remains an informal usage. But, formally,
Jamaica is a "Realm" not a "Dominion". As is the UK, Australia, Canada.....

Stan Brown...

(I don't think Buyers wrote those two lines, but the attribution is
not available in the article I'm quoting.)

Chris Bennett...

In the same parts in which Jamaica is entitled a Dominion, i.e. none. The
formal status of Jamaica as a Realm, as with all the Realms, is clear from
the queen's styles and titles: Queen of Jamaica and her other Realms and
Territories.

Stan Brown...

Chris, the very same logic supports calling Jamaica a "Territory".
Since that's an absurd result, I think we have to say there's
something wrong with the logic, and you can't validly conclude it's
the "Realm of Jamaica".

Chris Bennett...

Read it again, carefully. All I said was that the term was used to
establish equality with India. I did not comment one way or the other on
how the Ceylonese (either Sinhalese or Tamil) felt about it. In fact

CJ Buyers...

McIntyre does not appear to be very well read.

For some contemporary references to the use of the name Dominion of
Fiji, including official government organisations, please see the

A legal affidavit dated 1978:

The name by which the country acceded to the South Pacific Commission
"Dominion of Fiji":

White House Central Files:

Currency and stamp issues:

CJ Buyers...

Ditto.
"Jamaica is an independent country, and a dominion of the British
Commonwealth". Facts on Jamaica, No.1, Jamaica Information Service,
August 26,1965 as quoted on the website of the National Library of

Other references, current.

McIntyre makes it clear in his article that it reflected the desires of the

Chris Bennett...

Which proves what?

Chris Bennett...

Wrong again. The convention of using the term "dominion" to describe
self-governing British colonies was agreed at the Imperial Conference of
1907, but it was only a convention, except in those Dominions which formally
adopted the title. That it was only ever a convention is clear, for
example, from the case of Australia, which, although a "dominion", has never

Chris Bennett...

Try telling the Jamaicans they live in a "Territory"

CJ Buyers...

Try telling them that they do not live in a dominion.

It is perfectly obvious from the several examples that I have given
that Jamaican are quite content and at ease using the term dominion. So
I do not quite understand why you are getting in such a froth over it.

Any ambiguity about this was taken care of by the UK Parliament in 1981 when
it defined the remaining colonies as "British Dependent Territories".

been known as anything but the "Commonwealth of Australia".

The term Realm was formally brought into use at the time of the accession of
Elizabeth II, who was proclaimed queen of "this Realm and her other Realms
and Territories", and through the passage of the Royal Styles and Titles

Chris Bennett...

I'm not. I have repeatedly said it is still used informally.

CJ Buyers...

And I have shown you several examples where the term "dominion" has
been used officially.

As far as I can see, you are yet to show us any example, apart from the
supra national creation of the realm of New Zealand, of the official
use of realm in the title of any state. Officiallt, informally or
otherwise.

Acts in the then-existing Realms the following years. To the extent that

pierre_aronax...

pierre_aronax...

the

the various Realms have passed Royal Styles and Titles Acts they have indeed
"taken the legislative time to give the word "Realm" official standing".

As an example, New Zealand, which was known as the Dominion of New Zealand
in 1907, abandoned the term in the late 1970s and is now part of the Realm
of New Zealand, which also includes the Cook Islands, Niue and Tokelau.

CJ Buyers...

I am afraid that you have shot your own fox here. The Dominion of New
Zealand, whether or not that country still formally uses that term, is

pierre_aronax...

the

pierre_aronax...

(in

a constituent part of the Realm of New Zealand. The Realm of New
Zealand is a supra national state comprising the Dominion, plus the
Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau.

CJ Buyers...

I do not know why you keep going on in this vein when the use of the
term 'realms and territories' were for a purpose, relatively loose
terms to cover several forms of state. Just as the word "territory" was
used to cover crown colony, self governing colony, protectorate,
protected state, condominium, or trust territory, so the word "realm"
covered kingdom, empire and dominion. That is why the term realm was
used and not kingdom.

There is absolutely no conflict with a state being both a dominion and
a realm at the same time, no more so than there is between a kingdom
and a realm.

Ceylonese.

members of the Commonwealth. This declaration was made just after Ireleand

Don Aitken...

I think that "well after" really applies only to those which became
independent before the mid 1960s. Then, after a short period when the
delay was no more than a year or so, those which intended to become

pierre_aronax...

pierre_aronax...

ook

pierre_aronax...

ne,

republics almost all proceeded to independence as such.

CJ Buyers...

Didn't most of the West Indian and Pacific Islands become independent
well after the mid 1960's? Apart from Dominica and Kiribati, none of
the others intended becoming republics. Fiji was virtually forced into
becoming one by a little slight of hand by Hawke of Australia.

Don Aitken...

This is, of course, an anomaly, and for many years represented the
only exception to the convention that the Commonwealth did not concern
itself with the internal affairs of its members. It is another
consequence of the procedure adopted for the London Declaration, when
the question seemed much more important than it was to do even a few
years later.

CJ Buyers...

Anomaly it may be, but it has proved quite useful for some members of
the club. It was the means which allowed them to expel South Africa and
Fiji.

left the Commonwealth and shortly before India becamea republic, and was
made so that India couldr emain in the Commonwealth as a republic.

Chris Bennett