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Court Precedence in the UK versus social precedence



28 Aug 2006 03:26:24 -0700 alt.talk.royalty
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Wilton...
Having searched the archives here without yielding a definitive answer,
would someone be kind enough to illustrate how court precedence
operates in a specific illustration? For example, how would the
difference in court precedence (versus simply social precedence) apply
to the previously announced precedence the Princess Royal and Princess
Alexandra take over the Duchess of Cornwall? Many thanks in advance.

Candide...
Does this answer your question:

Wilton...
I had reviewed this excellent essay before, however it doesn't explain
at length the practical application of court precdence rather more
focused on social precedence?

To be rather specific, if the Lord Chamberlain announced that the
Duchess of Cornwall follows The Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra
in court precedence, I have yet to see an example of a court function,
like a State Dinner, where this precedence was put into action? In
other words, if a public announcement was made to clarify their
precedence rather than a private family matter, wouldn't we see or read
of it being put into actual action?


Candide...
There is this as well:

Wilton...
Thanks. Yes, reviewed that as well prior to posing my query. It too
refers more to the practical application of social versus court
precedence. I am looking for an example of court precedence in actual
action, actual observance...otherwise I'm left quite perplexed as to
why court precedence is announced as a public record if there are no
practical applications of it?


Sacha...
Candide has given links to some tables of precedence but it should be noted
that these do not appear to be rigidly applied, in UK at least. For
example, at a State Banquet things seem to be more fluid and arranged
(sensibly, IMO) so that the British royals who are most likely to have
something interesting to say to the visiting statesman and his entourage, is
seated nearer to the top of the table, whatever their personal rank.
However, on what might be termed military occasions, such as the laying of
the wreaths at the Cenotaph, precedence among the most senior royals is
strictly observed.

Wilton...
Thank you Sacha, yes I understand this as well as your example of the
fluidity
of seating at state dinners. Yet my question stubbornly remains, can
someone
illustrate an example of when (either real or by future example) "Court
Precedence"
as published by the Lord Chamberlain was or would be applied with the
example of the Duchess of Cornwall being 4th after Her Majesty?

Candide...
*Sigh*

Since the order of precedence is mostly about entering, leaving,
marching, being seated and listed on official documents, perhaps a good
example would be the opening of Parliament by HM.

If the Princess Royal, Princess Alexandra, the Hon Lady Olgivy and the
Dss of Cornwall waited on HM at the opening of Parliament, then they
would follow HM, in the order above, with the dss of C last of the royal
women present. If more female members of the RF were in attendance, or
certain duchesses, the dss of C would be fourth in line.

(Gary Holtzman) garyholtzman...
This is true, but none of these ladies actually do attend the State Opening.
Wilton's question thus remains. Sacha mentioned the wreath laying, but do the
Duchess of Cornwall and Princess Alexandra lay wreaths at the Cenotaph? (I
think the Princess Royal does, but I may be mistaken.)


Sacha...
In fact, now I come to think of it, I *think* the statement was made that
this particular piece of precedence was a private family matter, so would,
presumably relate to their own get-togethers, not state occasions!

Wilton...
The announcement was made by the Lord Chamberlain's office as an edit
to the list of Court Precedence. For better or worse, I was using the
example of the Duchess of Cornwall only as an example, my main
objective was to determine whether court precedence has had any
*actual* occurences of being applied since dinner protocols, etc were
already known to me. Frankly, I didnt understand the neccesity in
public announcements of court precedence if there's no examples I can
think of in recent months where they've been clearly applied.


Graham Truesdale...
The above reads as if 'Princess Alexandra' and 'the Hon Lady Olgivy'
were two separate people.
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