Four Estates?

I'm reading "The Baltic - A New History of the Region and Its People" by
Alan Palmer.

He relates that at one time that both Sweden and Finland had Diets which
had four estates.

=?iso-8859-1?B?SmFuIEL2aG1l?=...

Yes. Sweden up to 1866, Finland from its separation from Sweden in 1809
up to 1905.

I'm familiar with the three estates idea - church, nobles, commoners -
but what would be four estates?

=?iso-8859-1?B?SmFuIEL2aG1l?=...

There may be several different kinds of commoners. The burghers, with
their task to do commerce, was seen as quite a distinct estate from the
peasants. In Sweden, the peasants at the end of the Middle Ages to a
large extent a) owned their own land and b) were armed to a not
inconsiderable extent, and thus were a political force that clearly had
to be reckoned with. The reason that this was so is mostly
geographical. Large parts of northern and middle Sweden were not
suitable for large-scale farming on huge properties, because the arable
land mostly lies in narrow river valleys, separated from one another
by vast stretches of dense forest. (In northen Sweden, where I grew up,
forests have no names. This is because there really is only one - The
Forest, a contigous woodland covering most of the northernmost two
thirds of Sweden. No real need to differentiate between its different
corners.) In such areas, the family farm was actually the most
economically advantageous agricultural unit, and thus large estates
owned by nobility simply didn't form.

Francois R. Velde...

Scale of ownership and scale of production are conceptually distinct.
There could be lots of small family farms, all owned by one person:
in fact, that's pretty much the feudal manor. Conversely, lots of small
owners can farm out to the same person if a larger unit is advantageous.

Tom Wilding / Stephen Stillwell...

Don't know what they would be referring to - the Fourth Estate are
newcasters and journalists.

Joseph McMillan...

Yes, in the modern unofficial sense--so called because of the power of
the press in France leading up to the Revolution. But in Sweden and
Finland, the four estates were nobility, clergy, burghers, and
peasants.

=?iso-8859-1?B?SmFuIEL2aG1l?=...

This was the final order of precedence of the estates, yes. But when
the four-estate Diet was first assembled in Sweden, in the fifteenth
century (exactly when is actually a matter of some dispute) the order
was clergy, nobility, burghers, peasants.

It has to be added, too, that the Honourable Estate of the Peasants was
elected only from the peasants who actually did own their own land.
Peasants who farmed lands owned by the Crown or by the nobility, (such
existed, particularly in southern Sweden)were not eligible, and had no
right of vote.

Jan B=F6hme

Joseph McMillan

edespalais...

In many "Austrian" lands, particularly Bohemia, the "nobility"
was divided in two estates! The chivalry, the lords, the second ignored
the first ones

edespalais...

Obviously from the beginning on had to be understood that the title
should be read: Four estates [Sweden and Finnland]?

edespalais...

[Other kingdoms, lands (countris) had also four estates. But this is
obviously to be ignored in this thread].

chornedsnorkack...

And chivalry appears to be unrepresented in Reichstag, while the
"nobility" was divided into two estates who were represented. Namely
electors and other princes of Empire. So three estates of nobility at
least. But clergy was not an estate in Reichstag - the three archbishop
electors sat with the lay electors, and the other bishops and abbots
sat with the lay lesser princes of Empire. (Did any abbesses have the
right to physically show up at deliberations of Reichstag, alongside
the male abbots and priors?)

In England, the lords sit, together with clergy, in House of Lords,
while knights can be elected as Knights of the Shire and sit in Commons
together with burgesses.

=?iso-8859-1?B?SmFuIEL2aG1l?=...

Indeed, this divide is also reflected also in the name of the Swedish
noble estate. Its official name was "The Estate of the Chivalry and the
Nobility." (I can't remember there ever have been a predicate for the

chornedsnorkack...

But unlike England, the Swedish chivalry sits separate from burgesses
and together with nobility.

noble estate. The other estates had their particular adjectives to go
with their names. Thus, it was "The Most Reverend Estate of the Clergy"
(H=F6gv=F6rdiga Pr=E4stest=E5ndet), "The Very Laudable Estate of the
Burgers" (V=E4llovliga Borgarst=E5ndet) and "The Honourable Estate of the
Peasants" (Hederv=E4rda Bondest=E5ndet))

Jan B=F6hme