The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay

The Court Circular has started calling him this in Scotland. Why isn't
he called The Prince Charles, Duke of Cornwall or The Pince Charles,
Earl of Chester in England? Does anyone else find it absurd? Surely
he is The Prince of Wales everywhere in the UK (and indeed abroad)?
Maybe I'm becoming a grumpy old man (at 45)

Bigbazza...

OT...Ha...at 45 you're still a youngster...NOT an old man, only the old
one's like Walter Mathua or Jack Lemmon were 'Grumpy Old Men' :-))

James Dempster...

Suggesting that the idea of describing him as Duke of Rothesay is
absurd is fighting talk north of the border. As for what happens in
England and Wales I leave up to the English and Welsh.

You'll also find that use of the Rothesay title is hardly an
innovation - you will find examples of the future Edward VII called
Duke of Rothesay when in Scotland (though maybe not in the Court
Circular) and George VI when Duke of York was also known as Earl of
Inverness when carrying out Scottish functions, a tradition which
Prince Andrew (who also has Inverness as a subsidiary title) has
continued.

James (a grumpy old man approaching 42)
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Breton...

pierre_aronax...

Whoever is wrong and probably victim, directly or inderictly, of "The
Mammoth Book Of British Kings And Queens":
(anyway, that fancy story concerned James II, of whom the present Queen
is not the heiress)

In the real world, "Duke of Normandy" was a title granted by the French
kings only to sons of France.

Breton...

Not according to many available sources on the Web. It seems a
generally agreed upon point that when King John of England gave up
Normandy, and the title apparently going with it, this was only in
respect of the territories in what is now mainland France. It is quite

pierre_aronax...

Your "many available sources on the Web" seem not well informed: King
John did not gave up "Normandy and the title apparently going with it",
but lost it by ware. That's Henry III who gave up what he already
didn't possesse, in exchange for the recognition of his right on what
he still possessed, the Dukedom of Normandy.

clear that from a legal point of view the CIs are not and never have
been a part of England, or more recently the United Kingdom. They have
never elected anyone to the Parliament at Westminster.

pierre_aronax...

And so what?

The present title Duke of Normandy appears therefore to be a title
retained by the English in right of the Channel Islands. This is

pierre_aronax...

Sorry but the English Kings were only dukes of Normandy as vassals of
the French crown: what you wrote would imply that the Channel island
are still part of France.

entirely consistent with the English practice of having defunct or
reserved peerages merging with the Crown. I don't think that there is
any big deal about this; there are plenty of examples in the world
where different jurisdictions share names: Macedonia and Georgia are
two that come to mind. Since "Normandy" as a political jurisdiction no
longer exists, I don't think there is any real problem in HM referring
to herself as Duke of Normandy.

I think it's just one of those quirky British things. Why is the Queen
referred to as the Duke of Normandy in the Channel Islands? and the

pierre_aronax...

She is never officialy referred as such, which is logical since no
English monarch has been duke of Normandy and none of them has claimed
to be such since the 13th century.

CJ Buyers...

H=2EM. The Queen (of the UK etc) would appear to disagree with you:

Christopher Buyers

Duke of Lancaster in that duchy? The bit I find confusing is the
Circular's habit of constantly repeating the person and adding (for
example), Patron, The Royal Thumb Twiddling Society.

Tom Wilding / Stephen Stillwell...

This is not new - he and all of his predecessors have always been called

pierre_aronax...

Except Henry III gave up the title and no other English king used it
since (or give at least an example).

pierre_aronax...

Not to speak of the fact that, when the English kings assumed (without
right) the title of king of France, the title of Duke of Normandy would
have merged in that supposed French crown as did the title of Duke of
Aquitaine.

Antonio...

that when in the north. Just as he is always called the Duke of Cornwall
when within the Duchy. We went to the Edinburgh Tattoo nearly 20 years

Antonio...

) and

ago - and he was in the Royal Box (there is someone there every evening) and

CJ Buyers...

Thank you Darius and Jim for both your answers.

was announced to the crowd as DofR.

mikejames...

When Elizabeth R comes to Canada, I have heard her simply refered to as
the Queen. Has anyone ever heard her refered to as the Queen of Canada
on her visits?

Stan Brown...

IMHO it would be incorrect(*) to do so. A Queen Regnant is "of" a
*foreign* country; in her own realm she is simply The Queen.

(*) Okay, "incorrect" may be too strong -- would everyone accept
"redundant"?

Antonio...

Isn=B4t She "The Queen" also in Canada?

As for the Duke of Rothesay question, this has been a long tradition
since the personal union of England and Scotland.

In the former Kingdom of England and all territories under jurisdiction
of the English Government (including Wales, Ireland, etc), the heir was
known by the traditional title Prince of Wales (or, before the heir
apparent being so created by each sovereign, the title of Duke of

CJ Buyers...

We are discussing that part of the duchy that remained with the English
crown and to which the King of France agreed that he had no
jurisdiction. We are not discussing continental Normandy. Whatever his
conditions for peerages or dignities in France, they had no application
in maritime Normandy, meaning here the channel islands.

pierre_aronax...

Actually, we were discussing rather the title "Duke of Normandy" and
what happened to him after 1259.

The King of France had no more call on the use of titles in respect of
maritime Normandy than he had the right to forbid the title of Earl of
Albemarle. Whether or not there was a peerage title apertaining to
continental Normandy and governed by French laws and usage, isn't
material or even of remote interest to the channel islands. They had no

pierre_aronax...

"Duke of Normandy" is a French title and a French peerage and was hold
as such by the English King: if you claim that this title continued to
be hold by them after 1259, you mus take into account the conditions
for peerages and dignities in France.

pierre_aronax...

Then how can it be the same title? It seems you admit at least Royal
insight is wrong on that, which comes to the question: if there was a
new title, where does it come from and where was it used?

application there by France's own agreement.

pierre_aronax...

So if I follow you well, that title of "Duke of Normandy" you claim the
English kings used in respect of maritime Normandy is and intirely new
title, with no connection whatsoever with their previous title of "Duke
of Normandy", it was adopted without any particular act or proclamation
of any kind so nobody was ever of it, and was never actually used by
anybody in any kind of official act. In fact, it seems the only
physical sign of its apparition was the fact the English King dropped
"Duke of Normandy" from their style!

Cornwall was used).

In the former Kindom of Scotland, the traditional title Prince N., Duke
of Rothesay was used. This was so before the personal union, and, when
such union happened, things remained the same. So the princes used one
title in the North and other in the South.

When the two kingdoms finally merged, a conciliatory practice was
adopted, whereby the heir apparent continued to use the Scottish
tradtional title in the North.

Frank R.A.J. Maloney...

Rothesay is the traditional title of Scotland's Heir Apparent. Even though
there is no longer a separate Scottish kingdom, it makes for historical
continuity to use of this title, imho. To do otherwise would be perceived as
an insult to the Scots and their history.

(Gary Holtzman) garyholtzman...

They have just started doing it. It's been standard practice throughout his
working life, so far as I know.