Premier Baron and creation dates

I'm trying to make some sense of this - I've read the earler threads
but they don't really explain the bit that is confusing me. According
the barony of le despencer is assigned "with all and every such Place
and Pre-eminence as Hugh Le Despencer, some Time Justice of England, or
Hugh Le Despencer, some Time Earl of Winchester, as Baron Le Despencer"
Now for the first to be true that would refer to the 1264 creation (as
he dies in 1265). Is that the case? If not why not? From everything I
can see Lord Stourton (C15>) was considered premier baron on all those
occations when the de ros barony (1264) was abeyant or held by a female
even
after the termination of the le despencer barony and before it merged
with the Falmouth viscountcy.

Don Aitken...

Very confusing! Recent peerage references tend to give the creation
date of 1264, although CP says 1295 (which means it must have been the
younger Hugh, not the elder). It would not be surprising if the HoL
got the history wrong in 1605, but that should not affect the matter
unless there is a later decision of the House. Could it have been
reconsidered when the barony was called out of abeyance in 1763?

Chris Hoess...

This post is flowing out of a discussion on Wikipedia about the various
dates of creation of the Despencer barony. From what I understand from
where people have quoted from Burke's (I haven't had a chance to consult
a hardcopy yet), they now recognize hereditary baronies by writs of
summons as originating no earlier than the Model Parliament (1295).
However, earlier writs of summons exist for three Baronies: de Ros and le
Despencer to De Montfort's Parliament (1264) and Mowbray (1283). Per
Burke's, these three baronies have been awarded precedence as if created
before 1295: de Ros in 1616, confirmed by the House of Lords in 1806, and
Mowbray by the HoL in 1877. Burke's interprets the letters patent, which
granted le Despencer precedence superior to Abergavenny (first summoned
1299, but with precedence of 1295 due to the existence of barons by
tenure), as assigning the precedence of 1264; perhaps this is based on
material not reported at length in the House of Lords Journal.

My understanding is that when the Barony of de Ros was most recently held
by a female (1958–1983), the Baron Mowbray(, Segrave & Stourton) was
considered the "Premier Baron in the Peerage of England," le Despencer
being submerged in the Viscountcy of Falmouth. The Barony of le Despencer
has been unsubmerged and held by a male only from 1763-1781 and 1788-1831;
at both times, the Baronies of de Ros and Mowbray were either abeyant,
submerged, or held by a female, and so both holders (Sir Francis Dashwood,
Bt. and Sir Thomas Stapleton, Bt.) must have been Premier Barons during

Chris Hoess...

Really? Catton's English Peerage of 1790 (online) makes the first baron Lord
Clifford and Vesci (1298 and 1269 respectively), followed by Lord le Despencer
(1295). Stourton (1448) is much further down. Unless Stourton had some royal
grant of artificial precedence, I don't see how this could be.

Don Aitken...

Indeed. The Barons Stourton did not achieve their high place until the
baronies of Mowbray and Segrave (both dating from 1283) were called
out of abeyance for the 20th Lord Stourton; that was in 1877.

their tenure.

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan...

The dating of some of the early baronies by writ is very confusing to
say the least - the problem is the definition of "creation", which is
usually taken to be receipt of a valid writ of summons followed by a
sitting in a recognised parliament - and this, of course, open a whole
can of worms.

For the sake of the record, this is what we have in Cracroft's Peerage
going by date of creation up to 1299 is:

14 Dec 1264

DE ROS
LE DESPENCER (now held by Viscount Falmouth)

28 Jun 1283

Argentine (abeyant 1382)
MOWBRAY

c. Apr 1290

Brewes (abeyant 1326)

29 May 1290

FitzJohn (extinct 1297)
Grey of Wilton (attainted 1603)

c. 1290

HASTINGS

24 Jun 1295

Astley (attainted 1554)
Basset of Drayton (abeyant 1390)
Beke (abeyant c. 1303/4)
Berkeley (abeyant 1417)
Boteler (abeyant c. 1328)
Camville (abeyant 1338)
Corbet (extinct c. 1347)
le Despencer (attainted 1326)
Dinham (abeyant 1501)
Fauconberg (abeyant 1948)
FitaAlan (abeyant 1306)
FITZWALTER
FitzWarine (abeyant 1657)
FitzWilliam (abeyant 1569)
Foliot (abeyant 1325)
Furnivall (abeyant 1968)
Gaunt (extinct 1298)
Giffard (abeyant 1322)
Greystock (extinct 1306)
Gynes (abeyant 1397)
Huntercombe (extinct 1313)
Hussee (extinct c. 1470))
Hylton (abeyant 1746)
Knovill (abeyant c. 1350)
Kyme (abeyant 1563)
Lascelles (abeyant c. 1300)
Lutterel (abeyant 1476)
Martin (abeyant 1326)
Mauley (abeyant 1415)
Meinell (extinct c. 1434)
SEGRAVE
Wake (abeyant 1408)

2 Nov 1295

Clavering (extinct c.1332)

26 Jan 1297

Brus (extinct 1306)

6 Feb 1299

Ap-Adam (abeyant 1424)
Bassett of Weldon (abeyant 1400)
Bardolf (extinct 1406)
Chaurces (abeyant c.1490)
CLINTON
Courtenay (abeyant 1471)
de la Mare (extinct 1394)
de la Warr (abeyant 1554)
Deincourt (attainted 1485)
Deverois (dormant 1385)
Engaine (extinct 1322)
Ferrers of Chartley (abeyant 1855)
FitzPayn (abeyant 1450)
Geneville (merged with the Crown 1461)
Grandison (abeyant 1375)
Hache (abeyant 1399)
Havering (extinct c.1340)
Lancaster (merged with the Crown 1399)
Leyburn (abeyant c. 1399)
Lovel (attainted 1485)
Percy (attainted 1406)

21 Sep 1299

Grandison (extinct 1328)

29 Dec 1299

Beauchamp of Hacche (abeyant 1361)
Cauntelo (extinct c.1375)
Chavent (abeyant 1371)
DE CLIFFORD
Darcy (abeyant c.1350)
Ferrers of Groby (attainted 1554)
FitzReynold (abeyant 1356)
Grendon (abeyant c.1364)
Hastings (extinct 1314)
Lancaster (extinct 1334)
Latimer (attainited c.1603)
Lisle (abeyant 1539)
Morley (abeyant 1697)
STRANGE OF KNOCKIN

I don't think Burke's has all this detail!!

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan FCA HonFHS
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The complete guide to the British Peerage