Estonian coats of arms and present day bearers

19 Mar 2006 11:50:29 -0800 alt.talk.royalty
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Daniel Gubler-Jones...

George Lucki...

Thanks. I think Hermann Karl was the son of Karl Christian von Friederici,
b. 20.6.1752, d. Koil 13.6.1801. - and Anna Katharina Freiherrin von
Steinheil, b. 14.2.1751, d. 3.6.1811, the daughter of Johann Wilhelm
Freiherr von Steinheil, and Gertrude Katharina Cramer and Karl Christian was
in turn the son of Hermann Johann von Friederici and Barbara Juliane von
Wrangell and the grandson of Busso Christian von Friederici och Anna
Magdalena von Brevern.
At this time (1750) virtually all of Estonia was within Russia and so this
ennoblement would be neither part of the older Baltic, Scandinavian or
Polish nobilities but only a Russian one, but I think if you take the line
further they will descend from the German (Mecklenburg?) nobility. Was the
Russian ennoblement a matriculation of German nobility or a new award based
upon the military rank held? If this was a new ennoblement then David's
advice was correct - but do check if the family wasn't already noble
elsewhere.

cj.buyers...

If the grandfather is called "von" Friederici, nobility would have been
acquired well before 1750. At best, any Russian patent, is likely to be
recognition of an earlier grant.

Given that the name is a latinised Christian name of an ancestor,
rather than territorial in origin, the family was probably of native
Estonian descent.

George Lucki

coeurdelion...

Whilst they are of course tangential to your original questions, the
ancestors of Donna Elisabetta Ruffo dei duchi di Sasso Ruffo
(1887-1940) can be found here

Friderici there]

(though unfortunately without named sources) or of course in the old
Gotha and then in the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels (F=FCrstliche
H=E4user). As to the Friedrici family, have you consulted the
Genealogisches Handbuch der Baltischen Ritterschaften? MAssive,

cj.buyers...

There are Friederici's galore, from all parts of nothern Europe and
beyond, including a mention of Kurland. So it looks like the people who
run that website would be a better bet that anyone here.

Happy hunting!

well-documented volumes on the vast majority of Baltic noble families
published in the 1920ies and 1930ies, with several volumes on Estonian
nobility (Estl=E4ndische Ritterschaft). The Organisation whose addressed
I mentioned in my earlier message for this thread may even be able to
look something up too, as they must have these volumes. Best regards,

Leonhard Horowski

cj.buyers...

What do the Russians have to do with Estonia?

I could understand it if the particular title/patent of nobility was
granted by a Russian monarch, but Estonia is an independent nation and
has a much older history. Many of its noble families would have a
history going back before Russia had any claim over them. Aren't they
mostly Swedish or German in origin?

George Lucki...

The nobility of Estonia will in many cases date back to the knighthood
Knights of the Sword who were later incorporated into the Teutonic Order.
Before it became part of the Russian Empire the Duchy of Courland was
incorporated for a long time into the Crown of Poland and so the nobility of
Courland were also Polish nobles (the same holds true of Prussia - Royal
Prussia was incorporated into the Crown and Ducal Prussia was a fief). You
will find that the nobility of this part of the world is multi-ethnic.

In terms of the arms of a Baltic noble. They need no registration - they are
simply inherited. There is an association of Baltic nobles in Germany who
address was provided earlier in the thread. Depending on their own family
affinity underscoringt a connection with the Russian Empire or the
Commonwealth of Both Nations (Poland) the family may wish to apply for
membership in the nobility asociations of either or both countries. There
are quite a number of Baltic origin families in Poland (the migration is
much earlier in general - 18th century and earlier). The Confederation of
contact me directly and I can assist them with additional information, etc.
Genealogical proofs are required for membership but it sounds like this
family has done this work already.

The Polish rules for inheritance of arms and titles are similar to the
Russian ones - with two practical exceptions legitimacy is no longer related
to a Church marriage but civil recognition of the union and with adoption
the answer is complicated - it depends.

Kind regards, George Lucki

I'm helping a good friend do his genealogical research, and have found
that his family is descended from Estonian nobility. According to the
research I've done, his family is the last surviving agnate descendants
of this family. I have a few questions concerning the use of the coats
of arms for this family:

1. Does the family need some sort of German/Russian/Estonian heraldic
permission to use the coats of arms? Or do they have entitlement to
use them by virtue of direct discent?

2. The current "head of the family"s children are all adopted. Is his
eldest adopted son entitled to inherit the coat of arms, or must the
inheritance go through blood lineage? (the family had emigrated from
Russia to Bolivia/Colombia).

3. If the family's agnatic descent dies out, can a female pass the
family's coat of arms to her descendants? And are illegitimate
children eligible to inherit the coat of arms?

Thank you for any answers. I've enjoyed being a member of this
discussion board.

coeurdelion...

As the vast majority of Estonia's noble families were of German origin,
often held titles granted by German authorities and as vast number of
such families emigrated to Germany after 1917/1940/1945, the homepage
of their current association (the Verband der Baltischen Ritterschaften
e.V.) may be of interest to you:

be an English version)

Best regards,

Leonhard Horowski

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