Duke of Normandy: new facts

I stand corrected but you could have begin by that.

I suppose you just find this page, as I already did:

CJ Buyers...

uai.aspx

pierre_aronax...

i=2Easpx

aspx

I admit there are things here which need consideration.

pierre_aronax...

It seems that the balanced synthesis I was calling for has already been
written. In three weeks when Breton will ask again the same questions
for the 99th time, it will be enough to refer him to that link.

The article contains a great quantity of sources and facts carefully
analyzed. It will answer many questions asked in that thread.

For what is of the two counter-examples picked by Buyers in that
learned article (without of course quoting his source), the conclusion
of the learned author is that "the first of these appears to be an
isolated incident, and the others are local actions by Jersey
officials, and not consistent with royal claims".

CJ Buyers...

Buyers isn't interested in the conslusions of the particular author,
because they are wrong and do not address the issues I was responding
to here. If he was quoting the author's conclusions or using him as
supporting n evidence, it would have been right to quote him. Buyers
was not.

YOU were telling us here that there were no examples of the use of the
titles either in England or locally.

Whether the first example "appears" to the author of that article as a
single one or not, is of no moment. The existence of the example is
sufficient to refute your claim.

As for the other examples, being local. So what? Again, YOU claimed
that the title hadn't been used locally for 700 years. You are wrong.

His general conclusion is that the title "Duke of Normandy" has no
existence neither in French, nor in English and (more important) no

pierre_aronax...

ghts

Breton...

more in Jersey law. "If there are residual feudal or seigneurial rights
relating to the Dukedom in continental Normandy, they have probably
passed to the French President. But, in relation to the Channel
Islands, the English Kings established a new and original title,
effectively by force. English law, however, does not recognise the

Breton...

This is, I think, consistent with Mr. Buyers posts; if the English

pierre_aronax...

pierre_aronax...

Kings established a new and original title, then the current claim that
the Sovereign is Duke of Normandy is entirely correct. But, the dukedom
referred to is not the one that was surrendered by the English King,
but a new one, created by the English King.

Guy Stair Sainty...

Of course no such title was created by an English King as King of England, but
theoretically at least it could have been created by such a person by right of
his pretended claim to the throne of France (dropped eventually by George III,
and really in practice demonstrated most obviously by the fleurs de lys in the
Royal Arms and the participation of representatives of French peers at the
coronation.

pierre_aronax...

So now it is not the ancient Dukedom of Normandy but "a new one created
by the English King"? Then when was it created and by who? And when was
that title used?

Breton...

Well, why don't YOU tell US? You indicated, when you posted the quote
that "I fully agree, of course". Presumably then you have your reasons
for agreeing "fully". Let's hear them.

pierre_aronax...

In the passage you quoted, "title" does not mean "title" in the sense
of "style" but "title" in the sense of "right": that has nothing to do
with the title "Duke of Normandy". You may find helpful to read again
the full quotation (in the next sentence, the word "title" in the
second sense appears and the question of the title "Duke of Normandy"
as far as English law is concerned is adressed: thatnew *right* on the
CI created by force by the English sovereign did not imply the creation
of any *title*) or, better, to read the whole article.

creation of any separate Dukedom - or other title - in relation to the
Islands, and holds that the British monarch is their sovereign, in the

Breton...

It would not be necessary, since English law does not apply in Jersey
or Guernsey. It would be sufficient if Jersey/Guernsey law recognized
the creation of a separate Dukedom.

pierre_aronax...

But, unfortunately, the conclusion of the author of the quoted article
is that it does not.

capacity of King or Queen. In any event, the King or Queen could not

Breton...

There is no issue here; the Sov is Sov of Jersey and Guernsey.

also be Duke under English peerage law. Jersey law accepts - indeed

CJ Buyers...

The "learned" author is utterly and completely mistaken here. The title
of Duke of Normandy is NOT, nor ever has been, or was ever created anew
as a British or English peerage. English peerage law, consequently does
not come into the matter one single bit.

pierre_aronax...

That is precisely his point and you are all wet: the title of "Duke of
Normandy" does not exist neither in English, nor in French and no more
in Jersey law.

It is perfectly possible for the monarch to be a Duke, while being King
or Queen of Great Britain. Several were Dukes of Brunswick and several
other places for more than a century.

pierre_aronax...

Yes they were but that were Germand dukedoms and not a French peerage.
No relation whatsoever.

Breton...

I really question this. I thought there was a thread some time back
that agreed that the Queen is also Duchess of Edinburgh. I believe that
HM is also the Duke of Lancaster.

Guy Stair Sainty...

That is a fiction, as the dukedom of Lancaster is merged in the Crown; the duchy
of Lancaster continues as the owner of certain properties that in that rather
peculiar case have not reverted to the Crown estates.

Stan Brown...

Right -- there is a duchy of Lancaster but no duke and no dukedom.

By contrast, there are a duchy, a duke, and a dukedom of Cornwall.

asserts - the status of Crown dependency accorded under English law,

Breton...

Is it correct that English law accords the status of Crown dependency
to Jersey? I thought this was established by the Crown directly.

but does not provide for, or recognise, any separate title for the
British sovereign in Jersey."

Breton...

Again, any separate title for the Sovereign in Jersey would be a matter
for Jersey to decide, not England. And, since they will say that the
Queen is Duke of Normandy, it seems they already made this decision.

Guy Stair Sainty...

I do not believe Jersey or Guernser have any authority over the titles of their

Stan Brown...

And nor does "England", which does not exist. :-)

Can the UK Parliament can legislate titles for the Queen of Jersey
*as* Queen of Jersey? I believe the UK Parliament can legislate for
the Channel Islands in general, by specific declaration, or am I
wrong on that point?

sovereign.

I fully agree of course.

Breton...

Excellent. So you see the point?