Duque de Braganca joins Montenegro family order

Can anyone tell me what order of danilo is as report in portuguese
magazine says our duque de braganca received a order from crown prince
of the country. also report says that the grand prince of malta and
dukes of castro and calabria of constantine order in italy also receive

George Lucki...

WILLIAM BALDWIN JR...

I agree 100% and was amplifying your position. Those thinking there will
ever be a healing of the rift need to note the points above. A pity the
former Pope didn't succeed, I liked him. And I wish my own spiritual leaders
had shown more spiritual leadership when the chance was offered. Another
time perhaps.

Actually you have suggested a very interesting option. I do not know if the
Church in Rhodes still exists but it might be most appropriate to see this
icon return to Rhodes and for the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Order to
share in its care and in the nurturing of its cult. It would be wonderful to

Guy Stair Sainty...

Guy Stair Sainty...

Thank you; but I am afraid Mr Pritchard operates by a different set of rules to
the rest of us.

Thank you Mr Pritchard. This is a web site maintained by a convicted art
smuggler who has an animus against the entire world's art trade. You will
find (a) that I do not work for Patrick Matthiesen, but own a number of
works in partnershbip with him; (b) Mr Matthiesen is one of london's
leading art dealers, who unlike the author of this web site, has never
been charged or prosecuted for any offence and is in fact a frequent
consultant to the British government art export board; (c) I am not a
knight of Malta, as this man claims, innaccurately.

if you bothered to read this man's ravings in any detail, you would quick;y
realise that he is a deranged self-publicist who trades in unsubstantiated
rumours and insults.

In another posting on his site he has accused me of selling art to Conrad
Black, with whom I have never done any business at all, although i have met
him socially a few times, because he has confused his name with another
Canadian with the same last name, but a different first name (Herbert) who is
a former client.

Lexis Nexis is a web site which compiles news stories from newspapers across
the world; I do not see how you can compare it with Michael van Rijn's
site.

see the Order of St. John back on Rhodes and for such cooperation to occur.
As for the origins of the icon - its origin is Jerusalem most likely at the
end of the 10th century (that it was painted by St. Luke is likely simply
legendary like other such attributions) so before the final schism between
east and west. The original owner is not the Church in Rhodes but that is
where the longest home of the icon was. The cult was strong in the first
half of the second millenium and I think a return to Rhodes would carry
great symbolic meaning.

Guy Stair Sainty...

I do not think a Jerusalem origin for the icon is realistic; it is hard to
read today because of the centuries of later interventions, but I think
most scholars would date it later, probably to the late 13th or more
likely early 14 th century.

George Lucki...

Guy,

Guy Stair Sainty...

I prefer to take the view that there is one Constantinian Order but of
which the grand magistery is disputed.

Therefore all knights are de facto valid and we would usually treat members
of the so-called "Italian" branch as confreres. However this has been
less easy with the admission of more members who clearly do not meet the
criteria for admission - and in particular would include certain politicians
and foreign leaders in this.

George Lucki...

Bravo. I must say I am very impressed with the very generous and
conciliatory perspective Guy has presented, particualrly given that he is a
high officer of the 'Spanish' Constantinian which represents the senior line
of the family and a passionate defender of legitimist prespectives. I would
hope that the same gracious and conciliatory approach is also shared by
partisans of the "Italian" branch. The disputed mgrand-mastery of the order
does need be resolved. In reference to other posts on the subject it is
interesting in the context of the recent discussion of broad exchanges of
orders between the Crown Prince of Montenegro and many many others that the
Spanish Constantinian is reluctant to be drawn into these sorts of
exchanges. While such practices have their diplomatic heritage in some cases
it seems to be a practice that is encouraged by the more minor (and often
foreign) figures that seem to actively advise dynasts or promote their
orders. The risk is always that this sort of activity can depreciate the
value of the dynastic orders taht for many formerly ruling houses are among
the few gifts or favours they can bestow and so frequent or premature awards
rather than cementing real relationships and furthering dynastic goals can
become merely social and add to 'collections' of dynastic awards possessed
by other dynasts and their entourages. Returning to the issue of the
Constantinian which is not only dynastic but also Catholic and chivalric in
its traditions any emphasis on religious, chivalric (confraternal) or
similar goals seems very appropriate. The diplomatic exchange of awards
plays a smaller role in such a misison and can in fact be problematic (vide
the discussion earlier on this forum with the award of the 'Italian'
Constantinian Order to Middle East politiicans) when it is seen from the
outside as perhaps only a tool to market - that is enhance the splendour,
visibility or news-worthiness of an award. That can in fact have the
opposite impact over the longer term.

Kind regards, George Lucki

The history of the Golden Fleece is of course parallel, although the
Constantinian Order is a subject of canon law and it is that which governs
the succession to the grand magistery. The Golden Fleece continues to
maintain mutually exclusive claims and the Austrian cannot be worn in
Spain (although this no longer applies vice versa, since the Habsburgs
have been deposed). One also sees the same problematic situation with
some princes being members of both (King George IV, a protestant, first given
the Austrian Order then the Spanish, the Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg and
King Albert II of the Belgian, who both received the Austrian before
getting the Spanish).

The Man...

Guy,

Thank you for the response.

What is the relationship between HM Juan Carlos and Archduke Otto?
1st, 2nd, 3rd cousin?

What is the relationship between Infante D. Carlos and the Duke of
Castro? 1st, 2nd, 3rd cousin?

Based on my review of the internet news sites, it appears that D.
Carlos and the Duke of Castro are much closer in relationship than HM
Juan Carlos and Archduke Otto. If so, the
"senior" versus "junior" line issue appears to be a greater factor in
the 2 Order of St Georges situation than the dual Golden Fleece orders.

If the "junior" line is in fact "junior", than any awards granted would
be baseless.

I await your corrections, Don Guy ;-)

The origins are undoubtedly obscure but the accounts of the history of the
Order on Rhodes discuss the presence of a cult venerating the Theotokos of
Mt. Philermos and the presence of the icon on the island prior to the
arrival of the knights. Now I appreciate the unreliability of later
histories which during this time frame could exaggerate the antiquity and
origins of the icon (painted by St. Luke and originating in Jerusalem). When
you suggested that the icon was commissioned by the Knights - has anything
survived relative to that commission. Certainly we know the Knights greatly
expanded the shrine and the cult of this icon. Beyond what is in the common
accounts of the Knights time on Rhodes are there indications are you aware
of relative to the prior (pre-14th century) cult of the icon in Rhodes?
George Lucki

It was written (painted) like all icons to support the faith of men and to
give glory of God, the angels and saints.
I agree with your proposal. I wonder what the SMOM and the Monastery might
think of such ideas as ours. It is good when people approaching the issue
from different vantages can agree as much as we have.

Kind regards, George Lucki

it. who is prince that gave award and what is the history of the order
as never heard of it before although must be important if all these
royals accept it now. ja

Guy Stair Sainty...

It is an Order of the once-extant Kingdom of Montenegro that has not been
given for many years. Within the last 18 months or so, the head of the
Montenegrin Royal House, at the proposal of Mr John Kennedy (formerly
Gvozdenovich) revived the Order, appointed Mr Kennedy "Grand Chancellor"
and has started to give it our quite extensively. He began by offering it
to various royals who accepted it, including those mentioned above. Mr Kennedy
has received various Orders given in these exchanges, as has the Crown
Prince of Montenegro. The grand master of the SMOM actually was given the
Order of St Peter, not Danilo I.

Montenegro is a part of Serbia; its population is less than 600,000; it
was of very minor importance, as was its ruling family, but a series of marital
alliances between Montenegrin princesses and Russian Grand Dukes
and the future King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy, brought close relationship
to several of the more important royal houses.

cgdevasconcellos...

Senhor Joao Lisboa: Desculpe-me pois nao tenho acentos e til neste
computador.
Tenho uma pergunta, por favor. O senhor escreve Ingles de uma maneira
que eu nao reconheco numa pessoa Portuguesa ou educada e formada em
Portugal. O senhor e Portugues? As palavras estao pela maior parte,
certas. Mas a colocacao nao e naturalmente Portuguesa. Estou curiouso.

Carlos de Vasconcellos

cj.buyers...

For very good information, a history and illustrations of this order
please see:
The Orders, Medals and History of Montenegro, by Prince Dimitri
Romanoff.

As a relative of the family, Prince Dimitri inherited some very rare
records and acquired a good collection. Consequently, he is probably
the greatest authority on the subject.

Founded by Prince Danilo I in 1852, the Order of Danilo wasn't a family
order but a general order of merit. Conferred quite lavishly during the
early years of the twentieth century, it continued to be awarded by
King Nicholas in exile, as a sort of propaganda or advertising tool.
Perhaps the Crown Prince has recently revived this practice recently,
but I know of now awards for a very long period of time.

The Duke of Braganza seems to have a habit of exchanging or acquiring
spurious decorations from spurious heads of royal houses. Not so long
ago he was accepting decorations from an Ethiopian prince who had no
authority to bestow any decorations. Then there were the orders from
the former ruler of Rwanda, created many decades after he had lost his
throne. Your latest example seems to be another in the same vein.