OT: Events at preschool

My daughter's preschool is one of the more expensive ones in this area.
It's a good school with a good program so I don't mind paying more for
it. They also have around $1000 fees per year for miscellaneous things
like school supplies etc. This is Texas so it's not a very expensive
area overall.

toypup...

If it's more expensive, then it should be able to provide the basics and
then some without all the fundraisers.

The egg thing was fine, but the other fees are ridiculous and I'd be finding
another school.

Rosalie B....

I don't know that I would go that far. Especially if it is a good
school which seems to be a good fit.

I think I would want to know more about the various activities - are
they fund raising for a specific project, or just social things? And
as far as my child was concerned, when she gets old enough to question
what is going on (and I suspect she knows now, but just hasn't said),
I would explain the reasons why you are not participating to her.
Is the movie appropriate? If not, that's a perfect excuse not to go.
etc.
grandma Rosalie

Mary W....

Well, you know, its probably a full time daycare. It probably has to
meet a certain teacher-child ratio. It probably serves the people
who work full time at the university. There are teacher salaries,
overhead, supplies, staff. It is not cheap to run a daycare.

Amy...

toto...

Other than community colleges, is there any college with a tuition of
$7800 or less nowadays?

Amy...

Sure, here are the tuition rates for 2005-6 for the big 10:

toto...

Btw, I used 12 months. If I had used a 10 month or 9 month calendar
which is probably what college tuition uses, your preschool tuition
would be $6500 or even $5850. I'm not sure which is your real yearly
tuition for this preschool.

Resident, Undergraduate:

Penn State - $11,508
U of Michigan - $9,798
U of Illinois - $8,634
U of Minnesota - $8,622
Michigan State - $8,108
Ohio State - $8,082
Indiana University - $7,112
Purdue University - $6,458
U of Wisconsin - $6,284
U of Iowa - $5,612

Non-Resident, Undergraduate:

Penn State - $21,744
U of Michigan - $28,570
U of Illinois - $22,720
U of Minnesota - $20,222
Ohio State - $19,305
Michigan State - $19,808
Indiana University - $19,508
Purdue Univeristy - $19,824
U of Wisconsin - $20,284
U of Iowa - $16,995

I've attended two of the above, and they're excellent schools. I'm
sure that the rest are every bit as good. Like I said earlier WRT
mortgages - ya gotta love the flyover states!

Jeanne...

UNC at Chapel Hill is a tad over $5,000 in tuition and fees for in-state
residents.

toto...

Of course for college, you have to add books and room and board unless
you live close enough to live at home though.

Jeanne...

Of course, but the prices given were all for tuition and fees only. So
I only included tuition and fees in order to compare apples only. No
oranges.

cjrohr31...

As of 2004-2005 (because that's all I could find), the 'fees' at UCSB
were $6450/ year. They used to claim to not have 'tuition' just fees,
but it's basically the same. That's not including room and board and
other expenses.

Back in my day (started there in 1987) it was $1200 per year....

Not sure if the entire UC system is on the same scale. The Cal State
University system always used to be less than the UC, but not sure if
that's still the case (I would bet it is). Even at the increased price,
higher education in CA - for residents - is a bargain.

I'm hoping so. It turns out I inquired about the wrong place. It's a
different department that runs the preschool. HOPEFULLY the "everyone
who's anyone" preschool is more reasonable!

toto...

Frankly, I would be running the other way from a preschool
where *everyone who's anyone* placed their kids for preschool
That kind of snobbishness seems really outre for preschool.

I like inclusive preschools where there is a mix of economic,
racial, religious, disabilities, etc. It makes no sense to me
to be *exclusive* at this age.

C Thompson...

Dorothy,

I have been following this thread and thought the same thing. Why be so
exclusive for such little people? The only time my son was ever in daycare
it was at a diverse center with children of every walk of life. From single
moms on assistance, to judges and doctors, everyone was treated equally and
every child was treated the same. It was a very good experience for both him
and me. Granted it was a church based daycare center, so I don't know if
that had anything to do with it at all. But they just doubled their capacity
two years ago and had enough people on the waiting list already to be
completely full in two weeks. It was wonderful to have such excellent care,
and at a reasonable fee, with caring and well trained staff.

Cindi

This is what we pay a month. They don't do part time care - they
have a waiting list for people who want or need fulltime care,
thus everyone pays the same. But, having seen the budget (it is
a non profit, all money goes back into the school), teacher salaries
and benefits (which aren't spectacular, by any stretch of the
imagination) take a huge chunk, as does just the day to day running
of keeping the building working. The university helped build the
facility, but does not underwrite the cost of it.

Mary W....

If you are looking for a couple of hours a day, I suggest checking
out a local church's preschool. Around here, they have a number of
options for days that you send your child and usually its just
a couple of hours in the morning. All the stay at home mom's
in my neighborhood send their kids starting when they are 2 or
so for 2 or 3 days, then at 3 for either 3 days or 5 days. Public
school starts with pre-K at 4 years and most people then do that.

Mary W.

Jeanne...

Wow. $1000 is really high to me and we live outside DC, a fairly
expensive area.

They also have "events" every month. They had mother-son and
father-daughter dance recently. The entry fee was $25 per child. This
was inside the school building.They also had some movie screening with
entry fee of $7 per child and $12 per parent. It's something or the
other every month. Whenever a teacher leaves they have a farewell party
at some kind of party place with an entry fee without food to be
served. We have to purchase food if we want. The event list goes on and
on.

Penny Gaines...

[snip]

Who is organising these events? Is it a seperate PTA, or is it the
school itself.

When I was choosing the pre-school for my kids, I choose a relatively
expensive one where parental involvement was not expected. It was a
good pre-school, and also I was actively involved in a toddler group.

About the time my second kid started, a group of the other parents with
kids at the pre-school decided it needed a PTA. I think the parents
(mostly SAH mums) wanted to feel like they were doing Something Useful
With Their Time.

Penny Gaines...

Probably a cultural misunderstanding here - Parent Teacher Associations
have been around in the UK for decades, but are not neccessarily
associated with the same umbrella organisation as in the USA.

Caledonia...

I get it -- my bad.

[snip]

Penny Gaines...

[snip]

PTAs over here are not associated with political lobbying of any sort,
they are primarily fund-raising or social.

Caledonia...

Here, it seems that the PTO's are typically at schools where the parent
population is inclined to not support the more liberal National
Education Association agenda (which I haven't yet formed an opinion
on). A percentage of the PTA membership dues are sent back to the
'national' PTA, which does employ lobbyists.

Welches...

Most schools I know in the UK have a PTA. They will organise fundraising (in
my experience not a lot more than summer/Christmas fairs and maybe a couple
of other things) plus events for the children, like discos, craft morings,
after school things.
They pay for extra things for the children. For example, the school #1 is at
has a swimming pool and it pays for that. They don't need to pay for much
sports equipment at the moment because the supermarkets are competing with
each other to see who can do the best voucher scheme :-) but it may pay for
additional books, interactive whiteboards, perhaps extra computer equipment,
music stuff etc. It's really anything that is above the necessary
maintainance and what the government thinks it needs to supply.
Debbie

So they organised things like school fairs, and evening meals, and I can
imagine them organising a father-daughter dance, and charging high fees
for it, because they were sufficiently well-off they could afford it,
and it meant they were doing Useful Things With Their Time.

toypup...

You make it sound like those moms are just doing busy work that really isn't
important. I haven't gotten into any of that, but it would seem to me that
the stuff they do is useful.

Penny Gaines...

Well, in the case of my pre-school, it definately *was* busywork. The
preschool was run by professionals on a commercial basis, and they had
plenty of new equiptment - it had only been running about four years
when the PTA started.

Meanwhile, the parent and toddler group to which many of these mums had
sent their kids was desparately in need of help to run sessions, and
other pre-schools in the area were on the verge of closure because they
were did not have enough parents on the committee who ran it.

If these mums had been serious about meeting a need, there were plenty
of places where their efforts would have made a real difference.

toypup...

I wonder if the school didn't seem to have a need because all those moms
were doing the busywork and fullfilling the needs. It often is that way,
you know. Anyway, if I volunteered to fill a need, it would be at my
children's schools, not someone else's school. If I saw that schools that
didn't have volunteer moms were falling apart while my school with volunteer
moms was thriving, well I'd think that it was partly our volunteers that
made it thrive.

Penny Gaines...

Well, one of my kids was there before the PTA started up and there was
only a three month gap between when he left my next one started. There
was plenty of good quality equiptment when he was there. The pre-school
was already thriving when it was created. Honestly, the PTA was formed
because a group of mums decided they wanted to be the PTA committee not
because the school needed it.

I'm not criticising PTAs in general, just this particular one.

Oh, and the pre-school that was falling apart was supposed to be run by
parents (in fact there were several in the area that were run by
committees of parents, which were doing fine), but the one my kids went
was set up to *not need* parental help in that way.

I wonder if the events at your pre-school are being organised by a
similar group of parents.

Jeanne...

My first question would be why are these costs so high? What are you
getting for $25? Why would movies cost close to $20 for two people (why
wouldn't you just go to a first-run movie theatre?) Why are you paying
for an entry fee to a farewell party?

DD goes to a private Montessori school and has since she was 3 years
old. When a teacher leaves, parents may get together and donate time
and/or money for a farewell gift and parents bring food for a party but
there's no "entry fee".

There is no parent-child dance and certainly no single school event
costs $25 per child, although some fieldtrips are approaching $20 a
child. Almost all school events are "free" although parents bring food
and volunteer their time.

I agree with those who say that preschoolers don't need, probably don't
appreciate the parent-child dances.

For Easter we had to send candy filled eggs so that the kids can have
egg hunt. This I can somehow understand but the above mentioned

Jeanne...

Our neighborhood had an Easter egg hunt and we did this but this was
done mainly so we would have enough eggs for all the children.

"events" kinda irritate me. Can't they screen a movie for free? We
didn't attend any of these events so far. My child is young enough to
not know that she missed these. How do you feel about events like
these? Just wondering..

Ericka Kammerer...

Hate it. Our preschool doesn't do anything with
fees. We on the board feel that it creates too much of
a disparity between those who have the means and those who
don't, plus it's a major nuisance. We have a lot of
scholarship students (we try to fund as many as possible,
and all donations to the school go to the scholarship fund),
and many of them couldn't participate if we charged for
everything.

Best wishes,
Ericka

xkatx...

First ideas that come to my mind are tacky... I could be just saying the
first thing that comes to mind, and I could very well be very far off, but
for things going on at a preschool, that seems a bit odd. Why should you
have to pay $25 to dance with your child?? Did you at least get a steak and
lobster meal with that cost? Why such extreme costs for what sounds like a
basic, fun, family event?

What kind of 'school supplies' does a preschool need?? Crayons? Paper? It
didn't cost that much to go to high school with book rentals and personal
school supplies. And a movie screening? Seems a bit high unless you all
met at the movie theater for a new release as a group and didn't even get a
group rate. Please come to my going away party and pay money to walk
through the door AND buy your own food and drinks. I, personally, would say
no thank you, send the teacher a card.
The egg hunt idea is fine, I think. I know when there's something going on
for DS's dance class, like concerts at Christmas, Halloween, etc., each
FAMILY brings a bag of candy or some sort of treats, and each family is
expected to bring enough candy along the lines of one of their treat per
child in the dance school - which is about 50, so not too bad. Usually aim
for a bit more than that to have enough for siblings who attend who are not
part of the dance school. $5-$8 for treats for grab bags at events like
that aren't going to break anyone's bank, but for some of the things you
mentioned it seems a bit off the wall to charge such rates.
My personal thoughts and feelings about things like that are I wouldn't
attend if I was to cough up more and more money... I'm sure others will have
other pointers and thoughts which might get me thinking more, but until
then, when someone brings something else up, I find it quite silly.

-L....

$1000 for activity fees is really high. I wouldn't tend to participate
or support other "outside" events unless I knew where all the money was
going.

Barbara...

I think the $1000 was supplies, etc. I wonder whether its simply
divided out to make the tuition look a bit lower for prospective
parents, or if there may be some tax consequences of dividing it out
this way.

What I hate is them asking kids to sell stuff to support the
school/team/whatever. If I want my child to participate in "X"
activity - I will pay for him to do so. I don't want him peddling
candy or cookies door-to-door as a fundraiser.

Barbara...

I hate the peddling, too. I don't want my kid knocking on strangers'
doors, and I hate to impose upon friends or colleagues in that manner.
Besides, it seems like *every* kid in the neighborhood is selling the
same stuff, so who but mom and dad are buying? The few fundraisers of
that type that I do allow One to participate in (usually a swim-a-thon
for a camp for severely handicapped and terminally ill children), we
usually just go to close friends and family.

Still, there is a need for fundraisers of other sorts. There are
always kids who *cannot* afford the little extras. Moreover, there are
often *big* extras that the school needs -- more books for the library,
upgraded computers in the classrooms, etc.

dragonlady...

And *I* think the fundraising that needs be done to support those needs
is called a decent tax system . . .

Nan...

And Governors who won't continue to cut state funding to the schools.

Lesley...

NC just got an "education lottery", with the proceeds going to school
construction. But the county I live in, which adds over 5,000 students
a year and opens several (5 to 10)new schools every year, will get less
than half the price of a school in lottery proceeds. So I hope your
lottery is actually more helpful than ours.

Banty...

New York state supposedly does that, too. What really happened was that
non-lottery funds to schools dropped because there are a lot of interest groups
going after funds and they would point to the lottery funds for the schools.

The lottery for schools thing turned out to be a bit of a financial shell game.

karlisa...

What's really sad is that in two of the school districts in my town,
they have been feeding an alternative lunch to those kids who do not
qualify for free lunches and whose parents do not send money or food
for the kids. The school districts are now saying that starting next
fall, any child who does not have lunch money or food to eat will only
receive crackers and juice for lunch because the district cannot
continue to pick up the tab and are operating in the red. This has
created a public uproar as the kids will suffer because their parents
are too slack to pay for lunches or pack their kid something to eat,
and it also makes the school districts look like heartless misers. I
don't see how a child can learn anything with only a meal of juice and
crackers in his/her belly.

Caledonia...

What would you recommend the school district do?

Ericka Kammerer...

At our school, part of the money that the PTA raises
goes into a lunch fund. Every child gets lunch. Period.
If they have to use the PTA fund to feed the child, they
do so and then the parents are sent a notice to reimburse
the fund. Most parents reimburse the fund (and maybe with
a little extra to help keep it going). Most parents will
pay if it's possible for them to do so. I don't think the
kids should go hungry even if the parents are just being
lazy. Kids need to eat to do well in school.

Best wishes,
Ericka

karlisa...

Well, if a student *chronically* comes to school without lunch or money
to buy lunch, I think the school ought to contact DSS to make sure that
the child is not being neglected in other ways. To me consistently
failing to provide your child with food is grossly negligent. If you
are so poor that you cannot feed your child, then apply for the free
lunch (and breakfast) programs that are in place. I don't understand
how someone can send their child to school without lunch if they have
they have the financial means.

lisa
micksmom

dragonlady...

I'll speak up as a mother whose kids chronically went to school with out
lunch or money, starting in the mid- or late- elementary years.

My kids whined about the lunches I packed them AND about the hot lunches
available at school. So I made them a deal: I'd give them the money
they needed to buy lunches, and keep food in the house that they could
use to make their own lunches. They were welcome to pack a lunch and
keep the money, OR use it to buy lunches. Their chiolce.

I kept decent food, but would not buy junk food for their lunches, which
is what they wanted. (Lunchables, packages of chips, lots of cookies,
etc.) But I did buy the kind of bread and meats and cheeses they likes,
and good fruit and veggies.

Alas, they frequently chose neither: they spent the money on other
things, and refused to pack a lunch. They might make a sandwich after
they got home, but ate nothing at school.

And I refused to fight with them about it. I made sure they COULD eat,
but the choice not to eat was theirs.

lisa
micksmom

Sue...

Our public school has these events and yes we have to pay extra for them.
Our PTA also helps out with some money, but the rest needs to be paid for.
There is a lot of money that goes into these events so having to pay extra
doesn't bother me. It is something every month, but you don't have to attend
everything. We certainly don't. But, hubby does participate in the
daddy/daughter dance. We paid $25 for the first child and $20 for each
subsequent one. They had a band, food, decorations, pictures for the girls
to take home, flowers, etc. All this stuff costs money and it is definitely
not in a budget of a school. That is why the PTA is so important to help pay
for these events. What these events do, is to bring the people in the school
closer together and it sort of feels like you are building an extra family.
There is a lot of money involved in school. It's definitely not free. Unless
the parents are willing to shell out their own money and time to provide
these events or not have them at all, then yes parents are expected to pay
extra for these things.

Nan...

That just sounds way too formal for young kids. Why not parent
volunteers who play CDs and other parent volunteers who provide
refreshments (or even set up the entrance fee of bringing a
refreshment).
Someone can set up a Polaroid camera and charge $5 for a picture.
Now that is something I'd go for. But not what your school does.

Sue...

Because then it would be a cheap/shinzy evening and they wanted the girls to
feel special. Sure, they could do things different, but it wouldn't be as
nice. Like I told bizby, it never occured to me that because the kids were
young, that they wouldn't enjoy an evening where they could dress up and
have a dance with their dad. Sure, there are lots of things they could do,
but the dance does get high reviews, so no one is doing too much
complaining. It does; however, make me wonder what the PTA is paying for and
then why we have to pay extra, so I definitely will be inquiring about that,
lol. As far as the pictures, it is a volunteer that takes the pictures. The
only thing hired out is the band, and the band we get is excellent with the
kids.

Ericka Kammerer...

I think that's the key. For whatever reason, our school
do a *huge* blowout for our 6th graders. They basically get
feted for an entire day at the end of the year. However,
there is absolutely no cost to the students (or parents).
The PTA has a committee that does fundraising during the
year to pay for it so that no child has to back out for
financial reasons. Now, that's especially important here as
the event is during the school day. Even so, if there's

bizby40...

There is a third option. Why does the daddy/daughter dance have to
have a band, flowers, pictures for the girls to take home, etc.? Our
school has one, and there is a fee, but it's more like $6 per couple,
(I don't remember if there is a discount for more than one child).
There are decorations and light food (maybe pretzels, veggie tray,
cookies, plus something to drink) but instead of a band, they have
volunteers play records, and there are no flowers or pictures (Well,
someone from the PTO snaps pictures for the yearbook, but no portraits
or keepsakes). It sounds like what your school has is awfully formal
for young kids. And that's fine if that's what everyone wants, but
the cost sounds prohibitive for some people -- particularly if they
have several kids.

Sue...

I never really thought that just because the kids were younger that they
didn't deserve to have a formal event. Everyone I know love the dance (the
kids, at least). It seems that the event is very well taken because it is
always crowded. Volunteers do take the pictures, but they have to buy film.

bizby40...

Well, I didn't say anything about deserving, but now you've got me off
on a tangent. That is, it seems to me that everything is being pushed
down and down and down. Little kids "graduate" from pre-school,
sometimes with cap and gown. Formal dances in kindergarten? Prom was
always such a big deal because it was the first time we really got to
dress up and go to an "adult" event. Of course it isn't the end of
the world. But while I don't think kids don't "deserve" to have an
adult party, I think it's pretty unnecessary. I think they can have
just as much fun without the shrimp and the live band.

cjrohr31...

I think what disturbs me about such stuff, esp. formal dances, is the
push to make little kids like adults. They're not, they're kids. The
idea makes its way into every segment of society (eg look at little
girls' clothes in stores!), and I think it's not only unnecessary but
potentially damaging to push kids so much into adult roles. Having a
party/dance is one thing, playing 'dress up' like adults is another,
IMO. I don't think it's so bad for high school kids - eg prom, because
it's basically their first event as 'almost grown ups', though I do
think they tend to go overboard these days. But for little kids, it
borders on disturbing.

The food that is served used to be shrimp and better food, but now it is
just fruit and other smaller items, more like cakes and stuff. It has been
scaled down, but still it does cost for these things. It seems to me that it
is a nice event for the dads and daughters (even though most men do hate
the dance). As far as the cost, it does say on the invitations that if money
is a problem, then the PTA will pick up the cost because the invitation does
say that they want all the girls to be able to participate. Even though some

bizby40...

You know, we're lucky enough to be pretty comfortable where money is
concerned, but I've thought about this before. If we were tight on
money, I think I'd be humiliated to go to the PTO with that. It's one
thing to sign up for the things offered through the school system,
like reduced lunches, and reduced after school fees because you are
dealing with professionals within their job capacity, and you know
they'll be discreet. The PTO is just a bunch of moms and dads, and
maybe some of your kids' friends' parents. I don't know what
procedures they'd have in place, what kinds of documentation you'd
have to provide. I would never find out because I'd never ask. I'm
sure there are some people who probably would, but I'm sure there are
others like me who either wouldn't, or who would feel very ashamed if
they had to.

of these events do cost extra money and there are some that we don't
participate in, I still like the community feel that our school is
providing. It forces parents to get to know other parents and that in itself
is a positive thing. From the responses I am getting, it seems that there is
not too much school support for extra events. That's too bad.

an event that's *that* important in the life of the school,
then I think it's just unacceptable to charge a lot for it.
A formal dance is already dicey because even if there isn't

bizby40...

I don't know about other people, but I'm all for extra events. Just
not ones that cost an arm and a leg. Besides the much more reasonably
priced "parent/son" and "parent/daughter" dances, we have a back to
school bar-b-que (catered with a small fee, or you can pack your own),
roller-skate nights ($1 to skate, free to just come and hang out),
"movie night" (free), "trunk or treat" (you're supposed to bring a bag
of candy to hand out), a talent show, and various other opportunities
to congregate such as school concerts and plays, and book fairs, and
science fairs and so on.

a fee, the families may need to shell out for appropriate
clothing. That's not to say it shouldn't be done, but I'd
be really concerned about the burden it might be placing
on some of the students. We have lots of events at the
elementary school that do have fees associated with them,
but most of them are after hours and aren't all *that*
integral to student life. Even then, we take care to keep
the costs down. But when it's something all the kids will
be talking about the next day, I'd just cringe to know that
there might well have been a bunch of kids staying home
because they couldn't afford it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Nan...

Yeah, but if the goal is to have something where they would enjoy an
evening where they could dress up and have a dance with their dad, it
can be done without all the expense.

I agree with bizby that things are getting pushed too early to younger
kids. Going to a prom (which is somewhat like you describe) is
something that should be looked forward to, in high school.

Nan...

The eggs and even christmas goody bags/valentine's bags and whatnot
wouldn't bother me. But I'll be dipped if I'm paying a lot of money
for preschool, that I'll shell out money for events (unless they're
really extraordinary), on top of tuition and $1000 (!!!) supply fee.
No way. Makes me wonder who's pocketing the dough.

Jeanne...

I, like you, would skip them.