Ideas sought...

FlowerGirl...

help

Donna Metler...

help

Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.

Penny Gaines...

[snip]

DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental

Ericka Kammerer...

I think so. I'm just a stickler for that sort of
thing. I don't think the adults should be chattering
in the back, either ;-) Personally, I am very focused
and can manage regardless of distractions (good thing,
given my life and the things I need to get done in the
situations I need to accomplish them). Nevertheless, there
are many people who are not able to focus like that, and it
is genuinely a problem for them to have such distractions.
Even when others are able to focus despite the distraction,
I just don't think it's appropriate to cause the
distractions in a classroom. I think that the teacher
and students deserve as close to a distraction-free
environment as possible. I am absolutely a stickler
for that in the classes my kids are in. The one thing
that will cause me to yank them out of the class
faster than you can blink is if they start doing
anything to disrupt someone else's ability to learn
to the limit of their ability. Maybe the other kids
are serious and maybe they're not, but it's not my
or my kids' business to get in the way of their
learning--and it drives me nuts when others are
cavalier about it and allow their kids to get away
with being distracting. Little distractions here
and there add up quickly.

Best wishes,
Ericka

participation/presence is a requirement.

The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one

Leanne...

You are taking this too far. You can't see the message because all you want
to do is prove *you're* right. You are suggesting that its fine to play in a
hallway, its not. Not because she wouldn't be able to move out of the way
quickly, but if there is toys on the ground, something blocking the top of
the stairs so the toddler cant escape or whatever, people could either fall
over toys, get stuck at whatever is blocking the stairs and so on. If
someone trips over and falls and badly hurts themselves the owners are up
for a large sum of money, hence our Liability laws.

FlowerGirl...

actively

FlowerGirl...

one

FlowerGirl...

There's that oversimplification again.
Amanda

Banty...

Staycalm...

But didn't she already explain why she couldn't do that? One parent visually
impaired and other relatives with busy lives? I'm in the same boat as far as
not having anyone to help us look after our daughter. It creates an immense
stress when circumstances mean that we are forced to rely on (for example)
the parent of one of DDs friends to look after her so that we can celebrate
our anniversary with a meal out. Not everyone has reliable or regular
backup.

Banty...

She had a reason listed for everything, but frankly some of them were self
imposed, like "not wanting to impose" on inlaws, only considering her father as
a baby-watcher but not a music-class helper for the older child, dismissing the
teacher's suggestion out of hand. Not that things *can't* be done, but simply
nothing was equal or better than the simple humming convenience of taking baby
with and having everyone else at the music class deal with it (speaking of
imposing...)

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised, Chookie hasn't struck me as the excusifying type,
she's very level headed - perhaps it's the alignment of the planets ;-) (I
hesitate to say 'the phase of the moon')

Chookie...

LOL -- that's not applicable to me at the moment. I love lactational
amenorrhoea! Let's say that I tend to put things in a worst-case format.

Banty...

Maybe they've injected something into those Tim Tams...

In this situation I feel that the issue is really that the music teacher
provides a service - the class for OP's older child - but places pressure on
OP's family responsibilities by requesting or requiring Mum's presence in
the class. This creates conflict because OP now has two responsibilities -
proving support for older child while looking after younger. To have the
teacher tell her to go into the hallway sounds rather thoughtless to me.
This is not an environment likely to attract a toddler, not to mention the
safety issues involved with stairs, etc.

Banty...

Look, I'm a single mother (from the beginning) raising my son alone, living in
an area with no relatives nearby (my family is scattered all over the
continent). I face these time and space conflicts constantly. But that has
meant being willing to create solutions, rather than looking everywhere outside
to rescue me from whatever resulting predicament.

I work with children, especially babies and preschoolers. They are
distracting at times but they are also easily distracted to more positive
behaviours and tasks, given a little imagination. This teacher sounds as if
they are a little too focused on the class and not the wider ramifications.
This is not likely to be the only time they will be faced with this
situation. It is not that difficult to provide a little support to a mum
with a younger child. I have to do it all the time when trying to achieve
other tasks. This teacher risks losing her client. No big deal you say? But
what if she's not the only one who has to bring a younger child or baby?

Banty...

But* *that's* *not* *the* *class* *format* *she* *is* *holding*.
Apparently it's not a little free-form preschool, it's a *music class*. I'd
expect a teacher to be focussing on the class and the music! As other parents
(think - how many of the other parents have arranged other care for youngers,
have called their inlaws or otherwise rearranged schedules) expect and thought
they they had arranged and paid for.

I think you're seeing only one set of interests here.

I feel everyone is looking at this too negatively. Maybe OP needs to suggest
to the owner/director that they create a policy with a program or strategy
that is more inclusive of the presence of the younger ones. After all they
will be the next client in only a year or two. If I were the OP I would have
given up before now. I respect her perseverance

::sigh::

There's no reason to presume that toys are involved, or blocking stairs is
involved. Only that that's what the teacher suggested. It's an option
presented. It may not be the *best* option in anyone's view, but, if *no*
options are to be considered, then it gets back to reviewing the options that
have been rejected, some out of hand.

FlowerGirl...

Do you really think that Chookie pacing the hallway (which I belive is quite
short) whilst holding on to her <1 yo DS is a well thought out suggestion?

I'm a ex-EMT. I *know* there are ordinances and insurance restrictions
concerning what a hallway can be used for. Such that they can be used in the
case of an emergency. Blocking them with storage boxes - a no no. But waiting
for someone, or walking about with a child? C'mon.

FlowerGirl...

I'm sorry - I'm not sure what an EMT is.

Banty...

Sure.

Michelle J. Haines...

Emergency Medical Technician. People who work on ambulances. There
are three kinds, Basic, Intermediate, and Paramedic.

Michelle
Flutist
EMT-B

In a previous job, I was the scientist in charge of a research station and
as one of my less enjoyable tasks as OIC was being on the Workplace Health
and Safety Committee for our worksite. I am also quite familiar with
safety regulations wrt to egress routes.
"Walking about with a child" would probably be permitted under the act.
From what I understand though, the hallyway is quite small, so "walking
about" may not be an option.

But - back to the main point. The *teacher* told her she could to that.

FlowerGirl...

...and if I were Chookie, I'd also be checking out whether what the teacher
said was OK with the boss of the music school. AS I said, she's probably
perfectly capable of teaching music. Her knowledge of WHS rules may not be
so great though.

(On a side issue ... technically, centres which have facilities offered for
small children are supposed to have safety features which would prevent a
small child from falling down a flight of stairs. I'm assuming the door to
the classroom would orsniarily provide the barrier for the children so the
use of *that* hallway as a waiting area for young children would be in
breach of those regulations as well).

that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?

I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.

Penny Gaines...

[snip]

Could you invite one of the in-laws along, sand have a family outing -
you could bring them along for tea, and then have either them or you
look after the 1yo, while the other does the parent participation part.

The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
*two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.

Chookie...

The teacher is very young and quite new, and perhaps not familiar with the
concept of Public Liability Insurance. My required presence in the classroom
may have more to do with that than anything else. I will ask the teacher to
check that this is acceptable.

Chookie...

That's why it's a vent. Life isn't fair. Nothing I can do about this
situation, especially now the teacher has spoken to *me* -- can you imagine
how bad it would sound to suggest the little boy go to the preschool class?!
But Blind Freddy can see it though, and for all I know the teacher has already
suggested it to the mother.

Chookie...

The real problem is that you haven't read the OP carefully. Where does it say
that my role is merely to watch DS1? That I haven't been actively trying to
keep DS2 out of the way? And that I'm just chilling and letting the baby run
around? Did you need coffee when you posted?

I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy

Ericka Kammerer...

It is not the responsibility of the teacher
to be all things to all people. If she wants to run
a parent participation class for 4-6 year olds, then
it is her prerogative to do so. Presumably, people
choose that class because that's what they want. Perhaps
they have been to other sorts of classes and have not
liked them and have deliberately chosen this model.
Sure, if a bunch of people don't like it and vote with
their feet, then the teacher will either decide she
wants to teach a different sort of class or go begging
for clients. However, it could just as easily be
the case that there are plenty of people who *DO* want
this model. Are you saying that just because we know
of one parent for whom this model isn't a great fit,
it necessarily follows that all the other parents in
the class would like it better if it were a family
class? It may well be that this teacher already *is*
serving the needs and interests of the majority of
the parents. It's not even the case that all of us
who *have* toddlers necessarily prefer multi-aged
classes where the toddler is also welcome.
Just because you're paying for something doesn't
mean that you can do whatever you please, even if it
disturbs other paying clients and the teacher. (And
I certainly don't think that Chookie would expect
that, either!)

FlowerGirl...

Well we'll have to agree to disagree it seems.

Banty...

In which case, you'd be one of the ones "voting with (your) feet", finding some
program where toddlers and babies are jiggled in time, or whatever they manage
to do, while the rest of the parents who want pre-school music classes tailored
to preschool age, continue with the program described.

FlowerGirl...

Hmm leaving a thriving class of a whole *3* pupils. Gee now it does sound
like a popular option ... where can I book in??

Donna Metler...

And, as I've stated, such programs do exist, both for infants and toddlers
with parents, and for family groups consisting of one or more parents and
two or more children of different ages. However, a parent-participation
class, particularly as described here, requires that the parent's attention
be on the child taking the class-not on a toddler. Just asking the parent to
take the toddler out of the room implies that the teacher is concerned
enough about the impact the toddler is having and/or the toddlers safety
that she's willing to change the nature of the class for this student, since
that means the parent will not be able to assist. And, if you've got
keyboards on stands, with cords dangling, it is absolutely NOT safe for a
toddler to be toddling through the room, period. Keyboard stands aren't
designed to be pulled up on, for example, and you can easily knock one over
or pull a keyboard stand with keyboard over by pulling on the cords. They're
stable, but not that stable. Even in my non-keyboard based preschool and
early elementary classes, many of the instruments we use are not safe for a
baby/young toddler-there are special instruments designed for that age
group. It is MUCH easier to accommodate an older sibling in a baby/toddler
class, when they're usually capable of playing by themselves on the side, or
of actively participating with a doll or stuffed animal as their baby if
that's appropriate, than in the opposite direction.

I really think the only appropriate options are to

a) bring someone to watch the baby outside the room

Ericka Kammerer...

How many can be accommodated? Do we know
that there are spaces begging? I don't know what the
market is there. Here, there are lots of classes
for parents and preschoolers where toddlers aren't
accommodated and they are quite popular. People have
lots of different solutions for what to do with
their toddlers during the class, but they manage.
Lots of people I know choose these classes deliberately
to make them a special activity shared by the parent
and preschooler without the pesky interloper who's
recently arrived. I just don't get your seeming
assumption that everyone would be happier with a
mixed age class, much less your assertion that the
teacher is required to find a way to accommodate the parent
for whom it's not as good a fit. Would you be equally
sure the teacher should accommodate if it were the other
way around and a parent in a mixed age class was not
pleased with the dynamics resulting from having toddlers
as well as preschoolers in the class? Or would you say
that parent knew what she was getting into when she
signed up for the class, and if she didn't like the mixed
age class she should have found a different class to
begin with?

FlowerGirl...

Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer (above) to
which you have seriously replied.
But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me that
maybe nobody has actually checked.
It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class with 4

FlowerGirl...

with

students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice. ...most of us do tend to

Ericka Kammerer...

Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time. Could

Chookie...

The room isn't cramped; the school is.

be otherwise, but I don't see where the assumption is warranted
that "only" 4 students means it's not popular.

FlowerGirl...

....but in the same breath you seem to be saying that it is "plenty
popular".

Ericka Kammerer...

I said such classes were plenty popular in *MY* area.

FlowerGirl...

So you are showing a different view point - it does not mean that my view is
somehow "incorrect" though.

I guess we don't really know do we?

Ericka Kammerer...

Hence my questioning of your assumptions.

FlowerGirl...

Which I thought were plenty clear.

Banty...

But why on earth, especially for a music class, would a *large* class be a
measure of popularity? (let alone quality!)

Is it that music class where you are are run by rather large corporations or
government entities? As a parent of a preschooler in music, I wouldn't be
looking for the largest setting with the most students, surely.

The other thing that makes me think that the class isn't
terribly under-subscribed is that it seems like a teacher
desperate for students would be less likely to make waves
with one of the parents.

FlowerGirl...

Which could be true .... but as you say ... how do we know?
Based on what I know of music schools in our area, smaller classes seem to
be for school-aged children, but larger for pre-school-aged children.

FlowerGirl...

Exactly.
This is what I mean. It doesn't take somebody with a business degree to
think about simple solutions that benefit everyone in these situations.
At my chiropractors, part of the assistant's role is to nurse babies and
amuse toddlers while the Mum's are having a treatment.
...and I notice our local Rockman's store and lingerie shop also have the
gated area within the fitting rooms, and target has a couple of "Mum's with
prams" fitting rooms with toys for toddlers and babies.
Amanda

Banty...

OK, but that's not what this class apparently is.

vote with our feet rather than make a fuss over something, so it may be that
the class has so few in number because it doesn't work for more people. But
I don't know the specifics ... some music lessons cost a lot more and there
are smaller class sizes ... or even 1-on-1 lessons... and that's just fine
... but nobody will know if that's the case if its not discussed.
So by asking the teacher / music school for other alternatives, it might
instigate a discussion which could provide solutions for both Chookie and
also for the music school.

Ericka Kammerer...

I have no objection to a discussion of what other
classes and formats are currently available or might be
available in the future. I only have an objection to the
notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
namely, a distracting toddler. In *this* class at *this*

an588...

I think you and I have different feelings or conceptions
about what a request or "asking" is. I think this same
difference came up in the thread about asking a restaurant
for a balloon. To me, a request or "asking" is something
that can be properly answered either yes or no. To you,
perhaps, "asking" is tantamount to "insisting".

To me, if someone says, "Would you like some coffee?"
the person is not insisting that I drink coffee. Similarly,
if someone asks, "Could you please come over on Saturday
and help me move some furniture?" the person is not
insisting that the other person move furniture.
The other person is free to answer "No, thank you" to
the coffee or somewhat similarly "No, sorry, I'm busy
Saturday" or "I have a back injury." To me, "insisting"
is something different: it's when one says things like
"you really owe it to me to move that furniture Saturday"
or other things that put pressure on the person over
and above merely making a request.

I admit that simply making a gentle request does tend
to put some pressure on the person. The pressure is

Ericka Kammerer...

That's the issue. There are questions that
one doesn't ask, either because they're too intrusive
or because they reveal an expectation one has of the
other person, even one acknowledges that the other
person can decline. It would be rude of me to ask
you to give me some cash, even though you would
obviously be quite able to say no!

considerably less if the request is in an email to multiple
people asking for volunteers and expecting no response
from non-volunteers. The amount of pressure varies --
but still, to me, a "request" allows freedom and is
gentler than "insisting".

Ericka Kammerer...

Even if it is gentler than insisting, it's
just not appropriate to ask the teacher to solve
this problem. One can ask the teacher for advice
on what other classes might be suitable, or whether
a mixed-age class will be offered in the future, or
something like that, but one does not ask the teacher
to continue to put up with a situation that she's
already said is too distracting or to change the
format of the current class to accommodate or to
find some other solution to the current issue.
The current issue is the OP's to deal with. Even
if the school *wanted* to offer a different format
class or provide childcare or whatever, it would
be extremely unlikely that they could do so in
time to resolve this problem right now. So, step
one is to fix this problem at this time. *IF*
the OP is interested, step two might be to discuss
other options for the future with management, but
if you do step two before step one it's rather
insulting, as it implies that you're passing the
buck and expecting someone else to fix your problem.
You do your part *first*, and then you consider
asking others to make some changes.

an588...

I guess we disagree here, and that's fine. I suspect
the disagreement centres on the social meaning of "asking".

an588...

Good point about talking to the director/manager.
I don't think anyone suggested using the wording
in your second example. I think someone would only
say that if they were angry and lost their cool
and forgot to talk diplomatically. I don't advocate

Ericka Kammerer...

But you know, people are smart. You can
gussy up the phrasing all you like, but if that's
what you *mean*, that's what they'll hear, and
they'll be just as offended as if you'd said it
baldly. You only have the credibility to start
talking about what others can do for you after
you've fulfilled your own responsibilities.

an588...

It's possible to ask the teacher for help without
either saying *or meaning* what you say in
your second suggestion.

Welches...

Actually, I'd rather someone asked directly. Then I can refuse politely with
my reasons. If someone hints then it is difficult to answer directly without
giving offense.
Hinting, in this sort of circumstance, is about your feelings, not about the
other person's feelings ime.
Debbie

Best wishes,
Ericka

talking quite like that -- though I do think it may
be a good idea to suggest to the school, or "ask" the
school, to provide some solution for younger siblings.
Can't hurt to ask, I think. I know you disagree with
that, and that's fine.

Chookie...

And this is where it's tricky. In a previous class we took, there was an
active toddler, the younger brother of the participant. I had no qualms about
bringing DS2 along because of this precedent. In fact, I was surprised by the
teacher saying he was distracting, as I had done my best to ensure that he
wasn't (just as the other mother did).

Ericka Kammerer...

Was this a different teacher? If it was a different
teacher, the previous teacher might have simply been more lax
about enforcing such things. If it was the same teacher, she
may well have received complaints from the other parents in
the previous class about the distraction and realized that
she needs to be more careful about that.
I don't fault you at all for having expectations based
on what you had previously witnessed. I just think that the
fact that a similar disruption happened in the past doesn't
give you much of a leg to stand on in terms of justifying it
now. And I'm sure you have been doing everything possible
to minimize the disruption. Believe me, I'm an expert in
trying to minimize toddler disruptions at older kids'
activities! I know how hard it is. But really, what my
experience has led me to believe is that when the situation
is not conducive (parent participation required, no good
place for the toddler, etc.), it is simply best all around
to divide and conquer. It's so easy to fall into the trap
of trying to multitask-to-the-max and conquer all situations.
It leaves you frazzled and frustrated and never feeling like
you're doing anything as well as you'd like. Sometimes it's
just best to set things up so that you can focus on one child.
Make a virtue out of a vice! Bite the bullet and either get
someone else to look after the toddler so you can really give
100 percent to your preschooler in the class and enjoy it as
a fun activity you do with your big boy, or give someone else
the pleasure of that activity while you spend some special
1-on-1 time with the toddler and make a fun time of that.
When you've got a newborn, you imagine that you
can multitask and do it all because the baby is so portable.
You live as if the baby is almost just an extra appendage.
But they get bigger and more mobile and they demand (and
deserve) their own thing. You can keep trying to ratchet
up your ability to multitask and keep the toddler under
control, and sometimes you've got no choice but to do that.
When you've *got* alternatives, however, cut yourself some
slack and let someone else step in so that you don't *have*
to. You'll be happier and less stressed *and* your kids
will be too. Yes, it's a luxury to be able to do this,
but it's well worth it. Develop your network. You'll need

Banty...

But the *point* is - Chookie is in much *less* of a position to know that than

Chookie...

Why? The teacher looks all of 21, and I know how aware of such issues I was
at that age. Nor do I want her to get into trouble with the boss if she has

FlowerGirl...

offered me an off-the-top-of-her-head solution (and I believe she has). As I
said, I will ask the teacher to check that it's OK with the boss before I
leave DS1 in the room.

Banty...

With so little respect, due to your guess about her age, I'm surprised you're
trusting her to teach music. (Do you think she hasn't sensed your lack of
regard?)

Chookie...

Eh?

Experience counts. Should I pretend it doesn't?

So how about just finding another solution? Your compatriot Amanda is telling
us that businesses faced with parents wanting youngers in tow have all found
equitable solutiont, so they must abound.

the teacher.

Banty...

Oh dear. Did someone actually truly reciprocate Amanda's snarky comments about
needing tea and rest?? Dear dear dear, that's not supposed to happen...

FlowerGirl...

Made in reply to your "Oh Puhleese" actually. I was offering you a solution

FlowerGirl...

she

to your bad mood.

it in the future.

Best wishes,
Ericka

time, the distraction must be stopped one way or another.

FlowerGirl...

I don't remember advocating that the class accomodate Chookie's younger son.

Ericka Kammerer...

Well, you did say, "Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad
precious," which seems to be saying that you think the
teacher is unreasonable for attempting to maintain the original
intent of the class. Sorry if you meant something else by that
comment.

FlowerGirl...

Which I followed up with "but rules are rules".... I would have thought that
meant that "no matter what I think, the rules set out by the teacher are the
rules that apply".
I do *think* the teacher is being a little precious ... and I'm basing that
view on our very own 22 yo music teacher who is a little OTT when it comes
to the importance of music in the scheme of life. ... but thats another
story.

I do remember suggesting that discussion of possible solutions between the
business and client be instigated as the solution offered was not well
thought out.

Ericka Kammerer...

Again, I don't get why you think the teacher needs to
solve this problem. It would be one thing if there were concerns
that were reasonable given the sort of class. If, for example,
the OP's son was struggling with some portion of the class, or
was being disruptive, then it would be perfectly reasonable to
discuss with the teacher ways of making the class better for
*the student for whom it was intended.* But I can't see asking
the teacher to make the class better for someone the class
wasn't intended for, or asking her or the other students/parents
to put up with a disruption from someone who's not a legitimate
participant in the class. Sure, ask the teacher if there might
be another class that would accommodate a toddler as well or
something like that, but nothing that would put the burden on
the teacher to solve a problem that's none of her responsibility.
It's rather arrogant, in my opinion, to think that one's personal
problems are to be solved by others.

FlowerGirl...

...and I'm not suggesting that anyone's personal problems be solved by
another. I'm suggesting that it is in the business's best interest to help
come up with solutions to a client's problem. She may suggest another
class, she may refer Chookie to the school manager for further discussions.
It may be that there are no solutions available but unless there is some
discussion, how would Chookie ever find out?
I don't understand why the idea of broaching the subject with the teacher
and the music school owner seems to be so problematic to even contemplate.

Best wishes,
Ericka

It's perfectly legitimate to discuss other options that
might or might not be offered in the future. Although,
frankly, I doubt that the teacher is confused about the
notion that a multi-aged class might be useful for
Chookie at this point. Presumably, if she was able to
offer one, she'd have mentioned it by this point.

FlowerGirl...

Well since all of this argument is based on presumptions, you may be right -
perhaps there isn't the capacity for a multi-aged class ... but perhaps
there is and some discussion of the problem could actually find a solution.

Banty...

The thing that gets me about this, Amanda, is that it appears to me to be a
question that is a distraction, a red herring, from what Chookie's situation is
by her own description. You seem to want to wave this away with a "if the
discussion happens solutions just materialize" attitude. *Even if* a mixed
class could be set up, the other patrons of the current class likely woudln't be
interested, as they had already clearly committed to a preschool class of small
size and setting, and managed to do so without having a noisy distraction in
tow. Have you paid any attention to Donna Metler's posts? There are many
people interested in more serious music study for their kids, and they're not
looking for a family outing. Can you look at and respond to her posts? You're
probably posting from the Austrailian parents' NG, so I'll tell you she *is* a
music teacher.

Each solution you've suggested means more facilities, more classes (I *don't*
think that all parents, even all parents of youngers, want to move over instead
to toddler-jiggling cutesy music sessions for their preschoolers). Possibly
your government is very very generous with aid to such children's programs. But
frankly, it takes something like this to make your stance a practicable one -
for all the "business practice" and "client" and "problem solving" lingo you
throw around, what's missing is the bottom line. (Speaking of business
reality!)

Finally, is it really such a foriegn concept to you that a reasonable solution
to these problems of having a younger child, is for the parent of the younger
child, themselves, to take responsibility for their problem and solve it?
Beleive me, people do that all the time, and without rancor and excuses.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Amanda

Best wishes,
Ericka

b) leave the baby home with another caregiver for the class time
or
c) find a music class which is age-appropriate for both children, or which
has parallel activities (for example, a non-parent participation school-aged

FlowerGirl...

has).

FlowerGirl...

before I

FlowerGirl...

....

FlowerGirl...

graduates

FlowerGirl...

their

Banty...

Oh, so, you'll grant that she can teach music. But not that she's mature enough
to handle classs disruption issues suitably. How respectful. (I hope she has
few parents like that, she'd be walking on eggshells the minute she leaves the
strictly musical training!) But the matter still stands, that it's a concern
between the teacher and her employer(s).

FlowerGirl...

That's not what I said at all. Try re-reading my above paragraph again.

FlowerGirl...

another

an588...

I think it is respectful, or at least considerate.
It's fine to recognize that certain people have certain
capabilities. I don't think the teacher would be likely to be offended
by Chookie asking the director as a double-check.

Banty...

Firstly, is there a problem with the idea of finding another solution??

As to oversimplification, - if, as you say, good business practice is to
accomodate the youngers, why would Chookie's area be benighted by businesses
with poor practice? You gave examples of how where you are, because of what you
view as common sense and common business practice, you have many options. Has
that changed?

FlowerGirl...

No - again you misinterperet. Good business practice is to listen to
clients so that you know the service being given is that which is meeting
client's needs. I gave examples of possible solutions.

class going at the same time as a parent/child toddler class. My program
will often schedule such classes together intentionally, the parent/child
class ending at the time parents are expected to return for "Sharing time"
in the school-aged class).

FlowerGirl...

Which is a sensible idea
... and also one that my BIL's wife (a music / singing teacher) employs for
her younger children's classes. She has one of her advanced students take
the Mum's and toddlers in the next room for group singing / percussion /
dancing, while she has the older (ie 5& 6 yos) at the piano at the start of
the lesson. They all come together at the end of the lesson.
This is what I mean by the business finding solutions to the problem. ...
and the solution works both ways, T (BIL's wife) has so many clients that
she had to cap numbers some years ago. The waiting list is still very long.
Amanda

Because, chances are good that the teacher will be faced with one of two
choices-asking the parent with toddler to leave, and likely losing that
family, or losing other customers because of the presence of the toddler.
The fact that she's asked that the toddler be removed during class indicates
to me that the second may already have been threatened by one or more
parents.

Best wishes,
Ericka

in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there

Ericka Kammerer...

I hear your frustration, but personally, I still think
it's inappropriate to have a toddler disrupting a class (even
if there's a paying participant who's also being disruptive).
I know well the issues you're having--I've got two older boys
with lots of activities and a now-almost-3yo, so we've been
through lots of times where the older kids' activities aren't
all that appropriate for the younger one. Our struggle is
piano as well, as there is no way the 2yo is going to be still
and quiet during lessons. I bring activities and sit in the
car with her until Dad can spirit her away. I understand you
have limited options. Some suggestions:

1) Look for a local drop-in daycare for the 1yo.
2) Hire a babysitter, either near your home for a
long stretch, or near the class for a short stretch.
3) Bite the bullet and ask the grandparents if they'd be
willing. You never know--they might find it nice time
alone with the small fry.
4) Bring along a "mother's helper" to the class (or see
if one of the other families has an older sib capable
of taking the 1yo somewhere nearby to play).
5) If Dad can't effectively watch the 1yo, can he
effectively manage the parent participation part of
the keyboard lesson?
6) Switch to lessons where parental participation is
not required.
7) Have afternoon tea at home to shorten the time away
from home (or a sitter).
8) Maybe Grandma or Grandpa would enjoy being the
adult participant at the keyboard lesson and you
could have some nice 1-on-1 time with DS2?

Best wishes,
Ericka

Cheryl...

I don't know how she can say that parental participation is necessary
and then say that you can take #2 out into the hallway to play with
him. Either your presence is necessary all the time or you could be
nowhere near the place, there really isn't any middle ground there. I

Chookie...

Yes, this is what concerned me about the suggestion, and why I'll suggest she
OK it with the boss first.

would asking her which one she really wanted and if she was more
interested in having DS1 as a paying student than DS2 as a distraction
you could then take off to a local park.

toypup...

I've been to classes where parent participation is a must and parents cannot
bring in siblings unless they pay for the sibling. It is made clear that
parents must arrange for childcare for siblings not enrolled in the class.

shinypenny...

That was my thought too. When DD1 is taking piano lessons, DD2 and I
leave the premises and tackle the weekly grocery shopping, since the
grocery store is only 1/4 mile away. I am reachable by cell if there's
ever an issue, and the teacher knows exactly where I am. I can be back
within minutes if need be.

The teacher's major concern is ensuring I am back at the end of the
lesson and not a minute later, because by then she is ready to knock
off for the day and feed her husband and as much as she adores my DD,
she is not a babysitter. :-)

Apparently my ex has abused this on occasion, taking the opportunity to
run all over town and the attitude "oh DD isn't a bother for a few
extra minutes." He's never been all that good respecting other people's
time, sigh.... But I've got shopping down to a science so we always
arrive back 5 minutes before the lesson ends.