Don't know how to "fix" my 5-year old kid

Hi, hope somebody can give me some advise. My kid is a good boy at heart,
likes to hug and kiss (and be hugged and kissed) and also cries a lot when

bizby40...

Agreed. We all read it differently, and only he knows for sure.

bizby40...

:-) I'm sure he was joking.

his 3-year old sister "gets" him. He likes to draw and paint, he also

bizby40...

I agree with the others that there is nothing wrong with having a
"sensitive" kid. He is who he is. Do make sure that his "hugs and
kisses" are welcome though, as some huggy kids don't understand
boundaries very well.

Where I disagree is that the teacher necessarily knows better than
your wife whether he is okay. IME, teachers are far more concerned
about the overly hyper or aggressive child than the quiet or lonely
one. When a teacher says there is no problem, it too often means, "he
isn't causing me a problem."

If putting him in kindergarten is an option, I agree that's a good
idea. If he doesn't make friends easily, you can be proactive in
inviting his classmates over to play one on one. It can be difficult
if you have a shy child
that doesn't make friends easily, because often you will invite the
other kids over, and then their parents won't reciprocate. But keep
at it, and you should be able to form at least a couple of good
friendships for him.
His teacher will probably be able to help identify which kids might be
good potential matches for him.

Try not to worry overmuch, but don't let other people be dismissive of
your concerns either. They aren't living your life and seeing what
you are seeing.

likes video games a lot which we try to restrict. His mother stays with

Nikki...

He sounds like a wonderful (and perfectly normal) kid!! :-)

His mother stays with

them all day. To get him socially involved with other kids and active, we
have him in swimming lessons, karate and recently in soccer. My wife tells
me he is a disaster in all these activities, that he seems disengaged and
uninterested (like wandering around), with limited interaction (he doesn't

Nikki...

That can be totally normal. He might not be interested in those specific
activities ever or he may just need another year or two before he is ready
for those types of activities.

would rather, in a silly

Ericka Kammerer...

Why have him in these activities if he doesn't like
them? Sometimes it takes kids a little while to get into
something, so maybe it's just too early to expect much. On
the other hand, if he actually isn't enjoying himself, why
not find an activity that he actually *does* enjoy?

get "picked" by the other kids as a partner) and would rather, in a silly

Ericka Kammerer...

I'd be very hesitant to put a kid this age in an
activity where any significant amount of partner choosing
goes on by the kids. That just sounds like a setup for a
bad experience to me. Certainly there was none of that
when my kids were in soccer at that age.

and playful manner, follow his peers and try to amuse them with his funny
faces and throwing himself to the floor (and pretend he is hurt sometimes)
to get their attention. I am really worried because he is going to first

Nikki...

This could just be his personality! Some kids are comedians :-) It is up
to you guys to decide if this is who he is as a person or if he is acting
out of sync because he is not at the same maturity level. This can be hard
for the first time parent..or at least it was for me. I did not see the
immaturity in my own son because he *wasn't* acting silly etc. He always
seemed calm and appropriate but that is because he was so shy he wasn't
interacting at all. Once he grew a biy and started interacting with
classmates more I could see the difference in maturity levels more clearly.

I am really worried because he is going to first

grade soon (will turn 6 in December) and I think he will suffer a lot as
other kids will pick on him. His teacher says he is fine and that I should
not worry but I know better. I don't know what to do to make him more

Ericka Kammerer...

Why do you assume that you know better than a teacher
working every day with kids this age? He may very well do
just fine carving out a social niche for himself.

"malicious". I am not sure if I am seeing a problem were there is none.

Nikki...

I certainly wouldnt' attempt to make him more 'malicious' or attempt to
change him at all. If you feel he is out of sync maturity wise for first
grade then consider if kindergarten would be a better match. I found out
that most of my son's kindergarten classmates were actually 6yo, not 5yo.
That varies by district.

Ericka Kammerer...

I think it would be silly of you (not to mention
potentially destructive) even to try to do so.

The fact of the matter is that my wife "benchmarks" him with his peers and
realizes that they are all more skillful, engaged, faster, etc. and our
son would rather pretend he is a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle in his little
mind. Any suggestions?

iceskatingteacher...

My son who is now 14 was the same way. It made all of us miserable when
he was involved in activities like soccer camp. I remember he was
mercilessly teased because he was always wandering off because he was
uninterested. When he came home and said even the counselors were
calling him "Nature Boy" because he would stare at the flowers and
plants, I knew it wasn't going to work. However, hands on activities
like nature and science camps worked really well. He also loved to make
people laugh and got involved in theater at school. Any kind of one on
one lessons with the right teacher worked really well because she could
tailor her style and speed to him. He loved to play in the park, hike
and ride bikes, which are great forms of exercise. And now that he is
in high school he gravitates to more off beat activities like fencing
and rowing. He has found around a couple dozen guys just like himself
and they have a blast organizing activities like massive games of
dodgeball and a very serious Nerf league. Unlike some of their friends,
they do things because they enjoy them. I think this means in the end
they have a better chance of staying healthy and active. I used to find
it very frustrating, but now I see that its a sign that he doesn't do
things just because kids his age says he should, which has all kinds of
great benefits now that he's a teenager.

Banty...

dragonlady...

I'd agree -- there seems to be a general trend to start kids (especially
boys, but girls, too) later, with no evaluation of readiness. While it
can't hurt to evaluate a child's readiness for first grade (or
kindergarten), assuming it would be best to start him a year later seems

Sounds like he has a silly side like my kid does. He's now 13 and has done fine
socially.

Ericka Kammerer...

He doesn't cite any problems at school fitting
in--just in sports, which is hardly unusual for some

chrissypete2...

It isn't just a recommendation or a trend. Most schools do readiness
testing. If they do not, it was just put out there that it may be a
possibility for his child.

Also, if the cutoff date for starting school is December 1 for which
the child must be 5 to start kindergarten -- this leaves kids in
september, october, and november kind of out there. If they start when
they are 4, they graduate when they are 17. If they start when they are
five, they graduate at 18, like the majority of the rest of the class
born in December, January, February, March, April, May, June, July AND
August - they drive around the same time, etc. So say I am born in
January 2000 and you are born in November 2000. The cut off is December
1, 2005. This makes January 2000 able to start school in the fall of
2005 because he/she is already five and about to turn six in four or
five months. This also makes November 2000 a whole 10 months younger,
only four, about to turn five, just shy of a whole year younger - a
huge deal at this age. Now November 2000 can start school, and should
if they are gifted or deemed absolutely ready, but why in the world
would you otherwise rush them out into the world? I don't understand

Caledonia...

Why *wouldn't* you enroll someone if they're within the age parameters?
(your statement of 'rushing them out into the world' struck me as odd,
mainly because someone has to be younger, someone has to be older.)

The driving thing I don't get -- most of my (urban) HS peers didn't
learn to drive anyway -- and it doesn't seem like a big deal here
(rural) either. Are there other reasons?

Caledonia

it.

dragonlady...

I know quite a number of kids who graduated at 17 (including my oldest).
It wasn't a problem. It used to be close to half the class was 17.

toto...

I graduated at 17 many years ago. I didn't turn 18 until the spring
of my first year in college.

My aunt was accelerated and went off to college at 16, though she was
not given her HS diploma until she finished a year of college
successfully.

In fact, I had several cousins who skipped grades and graduated at 16.

I think our obsession with keeping kids locked into age groups is
actually not a good thing.

There are lots of college kids who are just turning 18. On the other
hand, with the trend to want to make sure that no one is the
youngest...I know more and more who aren't graduating until 19.

That doesn't need to be a problem either.

I just don' tunderstaned the tendency to ASSUME that someone turning 5
early in the academic year is probably too young. If the school has a
cut off date of Dec. 1, I assume they are set up to accomodate kids that
age.

cjra...

The cutoff date in Southern California - not sure if all districts but
certainly most at that time, was Dec 1 I believe (maybe even Dec 31).
Myself and 2 siblings were born in November and started 1st grade at
age 5, another sibling in Sept and started at age 5. We all graduated
at 17. Sure, I was nearly a year younger than some in my class, but it
didn't really matter. We were all more than ready to start at that age,
and all managed to do well in school, socially and academically.

chrissypete2...

I was referring to the practice of enrolling four year olds without
regard to their "readiness" for the sole purpose of making life easier
on parents - daycare, etc. Not saying that anyone in particular here
did that, but it is a common reason to starting them "early." Me, on
the other hand, I was in no hurry to ship my child off every single
day. Sorry it struck you add, but the fact of the matter is that
graduating at 18 offers benefits over graduating at 17.

Caledonia...

I'll bite -- what's the benefit? (I turned 17 right before college --
besides having more straightforward access to contraception my freshman
year, and being able to vote against Reagan, I'm not really sure what
I've missed out on. )

dragonlady...

What benefits? I understood the advantage to being 18 starting college
when the drinking age was 18. The 17 year olds in college were in a
weird position. But now that it's 21 all over, I see no advantage to
being 18 when you graduate high school over being 17. There are very
few legal implications -- yes, parents have to be a little more involved
during the first few months of college (if that's the route the kids
go), but colleges are well set up for that, since a not-insignificant
number of college students turn 18 during their freshman year. The
maturity level isn't significantly different.

I just don't see benefits to being 18 over being 17.

Ericka Kammerer...

If the cutoff is Dec. 1, why should the child have
to be extraordinary to start at that time? *Wherever* you
set the cutoff, you have exactly the same issue. If the

chrissypete2...

Exactly, but I wasn't saying that December 1 was the only cut-off date
and that the same problem would not exist if it were a different date
at all. Just putting a timeline out there to show where differences may
fall.

If the

cutoff is August 1st, then the July-born kids will be the
youngest in the class, and might be nearly a whole year
younger than some of the other kids in the class. It's
the same 12-month age spread *regardless* of where you
set the cutoff. Unless the local community starts holding
back a lot of the younger kids, in effect creating
an earlier de facto cutoff, or unless the child is
outside the range of normal for maturity, why would
one expect there to be problems? If the kid is within
the normal range of maturity for his age, and within
the normal age range for the class, one would expect
he would do just fine. It's not like development
happens in discrete jumps such that there's a big
difference between the child who is 4 years 11 months
and the child who is 5 years 1 month. Wherever

chrissypete2...

True, and when your child, if your child, is readiness tested on the
multiple different levels of readiness, you as the parent can decide.
My child, at the age of four years eleven months, tested somewhere
around 6 years 5 months in his language skills alone, but I still opted
to have him start so that he would be 18 when he graduated, which is
what I personally feel they should go by and get rid of the cutoff
dates. I didn't just take into consideration the fact that he was this

Banty...

Can you point us to this 2000 report?

chrissypete2...

Sure - do a web search for academic redshirting and it might be the
first one up for ya, amongst a whole slew of others - that is if you
can select which articles are really unbiased ones versus the all pro
or all anti.

Unless people start posting at the end of this thread, I am not able to
find responses in the middle for some reason and I no longer have the
time to keep trying to find out who posted what to what. My computer
just moves all of the posts down in number order but fails to show me
which ones are new.

Banty...

This says nothing about how *efffective* it is.

chrissypete2...

My favorite part of the above paragraph is the "In light of such data,"
part, since academic curricula has only gotten more complicated over
the years. lol.

Banty...

These say nothing about whether or not redshirting addresses these problems
effectively.

old now, but instead what that meant later down the road - another
year, or 11 months older, upon entering college and the work force,
etc. would certainly never HURT anyone. I think a child who is
academically gifted should start sooner because you would never want to
squelch that strongpoint, and it they were not also emotionally or
physically mature enough to handle it, it would be up to that child's
parents to decide. period.

Ericka Kammerer...

I agree that parents get to decide. I do not
agree that it is an unalloyed benefit for the child to
be older. Certainly, it would *NOT* have been a good
thing for me to have been held back, and I wasn't 18
when I graduated. Your contention is also not entirely
supported by research. See, for example:

Academic Redshirting and Young Children. ERIC Digest.
Authors: Katz, Lilian G.;

"Findings are mostly positive for the individual child in the short
term, but seem to be increasingly negative in the long term, "

Wherever

the cutoff is, de facto or de jure, there will be
kids who span the entire 12 month range (and maybe
more, depending on circumstances). Oh, and just because

Michelle J. Haines...

The cut-off in Wyoming is September 15th. However, they've been
accelerating the kindergarten curriculum, and school counselors will
often recommend that children not enter kindergarten unless they are
five the previous spring! The kindergarten curriculum now covers
about half of what my first grade class covered.

My MIL is a school counselor, and my husband and I homeschool, and
we've had a few discussions on this issue. IMO, what's the point of
being so proud that your kindergarteners are so advanced and read so
well if you've simply redefined the kindergartener to be a half a year
older? Seems like a zero sum game, to me.

Caledonia...

(Nodding head in serious agreement...) Three of the boys (30% of the
boys) in DD1's first grade class will be turning 8 this summer, and 1
is already 8 yo. Her class appears to be representative of the other 3
first grade classes.

Ericka Kammerer...

Whatever the benefits or liabilities to academic
redshirting for individual students, there has been a
*definite* negative effect for schools and communities,
in that it has fostered exactly this sort of advancement
in the kindergarten curriculum and expectations, which
often forms a kind of vicious cycle where increasing
expectations makes it even more developmentally inappropriate
and makes more students unsuccessful--even the older ones.

chrissypete2...

to me, it is simple - I don't feel the need to force my child to begin
"real life" at 17 versus 18. That is the benefit of which I speak.
Granted, there a ton of kids who don't do squat, but once a child
starts kindergarten, the whole rest of their lives, timewise, are
essentially devoted to someone/something else. I'm in no rush to make
it happen a year earlier.

Best wishes,
Ericka

chrissypete2...

Nice try, the OP said "I am really worried because he is going to first

grade soon (will turn 6 in December) and I think he will suffer a lot
as
other kids will pick on him." - I said nothing along the lines of what

dragonlady...

But dad's concerns seemed to be based on how his son is doing in

chrissypete2...

Yes that is how it starts out, but I read it as him just generally
being worried about the mix since there is more involved in the first
grade than recess.

athletic pursuits.

bizby40...

The dad's concerns are based on the activities he is involved in that
involve other children as well.

Banty...

Other children who are interested in sports!

I didn't put my son into sports because he wasn't interested (as in, actively
showed disinterest). Most parents follow their kids' leads to some extent. If
an unathletic kid is being signed up to all kinds of sports, he'll be there with
a group of kids self-selected (in this case, parent-selected) to be the ones who
are better at it.

you interpreted that as.

Ericka Kammerer...

He says he's worried kids will pick on him because
he's not good enough/fast enough/engaged enough at swimming,
soccer, and martial arts, and wonders if he should somehow
try to make his son more "malicious" so that he won't be
picked on. So, again, are you saying that if he doesn't
like and isn't good at swimming, martial arts, and soccer
and isn't sufficiently "malicious," does that mean that
Dad should be worried about him being picked on in first
grade?

Best wishes,
Ericka

chrissypete2...

Again, this is a cut and paste quote from the original post "I am
really worried because he is going to first

bizby40...

Which only says that perhaps he should try his son in some
non-physical activities, not that the dad is determined that he must
be an athlete. The activities they've described are some of the most
common for that age group. It takes a bit more work to find things
like art classes (at least around here). So I don't take the choice

Banty...

Coming, as it did, as the end of a post about his performance in sports, how
else it it to be taken? You can't expect that we'd respond as if this statement
is without context, even if *you* did.

Ericka Kammerer...

Given that the OP is explicit about *why* he is worried
his son isn't ready, and spends the rest of the post discussing
those things, I'm not particularly buying your interpretation
at this point.

Best wishes,
Ericka

chrissypete2...

that's fine because I don't buy your's. I read the whole post and tried
to see the bigger picture, not just the part about sports.

Chances are high that this child has the same behavior when in a group
where sports are not involved.

"likes to hug and kiss (and be hugged and kissed) and ***also cries a
lot when
his 3-year old sister "gets" him.*** He likes to draw and paint, he
also
likes video games a lot which we try to restrict.

"To get him ***socially*** involved with other kids and active,"

"seems disengaged and uninterested (like wandering around), with
***limited interaction*** (he doesn't
get "picked" by the other kids as a partner) and would rather, in a
silly
and playful manner, follow his peers and try to amuse them with his
funny
faces and throwing himself to the floor (and pretend he is hurt
sometimes)
to get their attention"

of activities to be meaningful in any way.

Penny Gaines...

Actually, I wondered if the mom has a role to play as well. If the
mom *also* thinks that an interest in sports is important for boys,
she may be putting pressure on the boy, which is making him nervous,
which is making him perform badly. I can imagine a sporty mom spending
the drive home pointing out that he missed an easy catch, and why wasn't
he watching, and why does he have to spend every game daydreaming...

My understanding - from what y'all have been saying - is that this
boy will be one of the younger boys in his grade. If the sporting
activities are arranged by grade (ie the karate is "Kindergarten
Karate", not "Karate for 5yos"), then the mom is comparing his skills
to children who are mostly older then him, and no wonder he is
doing worse.

Cathy Kearns...

However, if the sports are arranged by age (like many sports are here in
Northern California) holding him back in school will only mean he will be on
teams with kids in the class in front of him. I've seen quite a few cases

bizby40...

Our sports leagues are all run separately from the schools at the
grade school level. You often have kids from several different
schools together on a team. And all the sports that we've been
involved in cover several years. Plus, they spend a couple of hours a
week involved in a sport, for a few months out of the year. It's
unlikely that will keep them from making friends in their own school
and grade, when they see those kids 30 hours/week, for about 8 months
out of the year.

Ericka Kammerer...

Here, most of the sports are fairly tight age
groups (generally only a one-year spread), and the leagues
often try to get kids from the same school together on the
same teams (in the house leagues--all bets are off for more
competitive leagues). So, kids generally will have kids
they know from school on their teams, and would likely be
the odd person out grade-wise if they were not the "usual"
age for the grade. My kids had quite a network going of

bizby40...

Well, the soccer teams are grouped by school as much as possible. DD
was the only 5th grader on her team, which had as young as 3rd grade,
but it was good for her to get to meet new kids, and she really liked
it.

Ericka Kammerer...

Wow. Here they are *really* tight on the age
range. Heck, it would have been more palatable schedule-
wise for us if we could have our 5th grader and 3rd grader
on the same team, but that's literally impossible here.

toto...

AYSO teams are under-10, under-12, under-14, under-19, I think.

I think kids can *play-up* in age, but not down, so sometimes the
under-12s might have kids who were as young as 8 or 9 who were
better players.

Ericka Kammerer...

USYSA (here) is U6, U7, U8, U9, U10, U11-U12, U13-U14, U16,
and U19, so they don't start with a broader age range until the
kids are older. They don't allow "playing down," and will
only extremely rarely allow "playing up" in our leagues. We
do have some issues in that the cut-off date for USYSA is about
two months off from the school cut-off. Depending on the
child, they will often allow a child to play with his or
her grade if the child is evaluated to be big enough and
coordinated enough, but they get strict about that cut-offs
if they start to play in competitive leagues.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Rosalie B....

I think this varies a great deal by region. I know my grandchildren
mostly have 2 years per level, and sometimes it can stretch to 3
especially if they start a bit younger than normal. My granddaughter
who was 6 in October, but was in the first grade a year ahead of time
was allowed to play on the first grade team even though she was one of
the youngest on the team because it wasn't specified as age but as
grade. And her brother also started a year early, so he had an extra
year at the first level.

soccer friends, many of whom attended their school, when
they were playing soccer. Obviously, these things vary
from place to place, but I am a little surprised to hear
wide age groups for sports teams. Here, there seems to
be a lot of concern about the safety of having too wide
an age spread on a team (at least for team sports that
can involve some contact--the swim teams and such are
obviously very mixed in age).

bizby40...

Soccer seems to have 2 years per team. Baseball has 3. I don't know
for sure about football, but there seems to be only one team for the
school that covers 2nd-5th grades. They practice together, but could

Ericka Kammerer...

Huh. I know baseball/t-ball/softball, soccer, and
basketball here are all pretty much one year spreads for
all the leagues in my town (not as sure about neighboring
leagues, but I get the impression it's the same there).

be divided (by weight not age) to actually play. Gymnastics,
swimming, karate, and dance seem to be more grouped by ability than
age. And I think that the fact we have a small school accounts for

Rosalie B....

Here for football, it is both weight AND age. They had to be both a
certain age, and below a certain weight. But basket ball was by age
and not height which I thought was a bit unfair.

Ericka Kammerer...

I think that that the restrictions are due mostly to
safety concerns, for any of the sports that can involve
contact. Things like wrestling and football involve even
more contact, and so they throw the weight issue in. For
basketball, the height is an advantage in the game, but not
as much of a safety issue.

Rosalie B....

I understand that, but I still thing that having a kid who is 9 and
still short playing against kids who are 11 or 12 and have started to
grow is unfair, and probably the skills they learn when they are short
will have to be relearned when they get taller. That's just a WAG on
my part though - I have no backup documentation.

Ericka Kammerer...

Oh, I agree totally that a kid who is substantially
shorter has some serious disadvantages on a basketball team.
I don't know how detrimental to the kid's training it is,
but heck, it's got to be tough on morale, at any rate!
Here, basketball is also a fairly tight age range, and
9yos wouldn't be playing with 11/12yos. They have an
instructional league for 5-9yos, where they group the
teams and who they play with by age. Then, they have
U9, U11, U13, U15, and U18, so a two year span until
the last group. Even with a two year gap, I'm sure
it's rough if you happen to be a very short 12yo.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer...

Same here for that sort of thing. It's the
"typical" team sports that have the tight age restrictions
here.

Rosalie B....

My older girls did gymnastics at school - or after school, and the
whole state had age/grade level competition.

Swim teams generally practice by ability level, but swim by age.

Incidentally - the majority of children are born in August and
September - particularly September. Something about Christmas
holidays I guess.

Ericka Kammerer...

I assume you meant August and September are the
most popular months, not that the majority of kids are
actually born in those months ;-) I have one August

Rosalie B....

I guess that is what I mean. There are more children born in those
months. I had to 'age up' kids on the swim team when they had their
birthdays, and I had to do far more of that in August and September
than I did in any other months.

In some sports (horseback riding for instance), riders are the same
age as they are on January 1st for the whole year. The horses
themselves are kind of opposite - a horse becomes one day older on
January first regardless of when they were born.

Keeping that in mind, I wrote the summer swim league rules for our
local league so that whatever age the kids were on Memorial Day, they
were that age for the whole summer. Because aging the kids up was a
PITA and I didn't think that the summer league coaches would be
assiduous about it.

baby out of three (and I'm a September baby). I have
a couple friends, though, whose babies are all clustered
at that time! In one case, they practiced NFP, and while

Rosalie B....

Our of my four, one is August, one is September and one is May. The
unplanned one is January. My mom is (oops was) the very end of July,
and my grandchildren - two in July, two in August, two in September,
one in October, one in November, one in April, one in May, and one in
June.

the first baby was planned, the next three were accidents
that came like clockwork every other September. In the
other case, same situation except that Mom was on birth
control pills and still got pregnant three more times
(different pills, too), though hers weren't every two
years (I think). Very odd, I thought.

Rosalie B....

Incidentally I also found that after someone had 3 kids, they lost
track of when their kids actual birthdays were. For large families,
I'd do better asking the actual children themselves when their
birthdays were because their mom would often give me incorrect
information

Best wishes,
Ericka

the fact that there are seldom many others from our school on the
teams. The baseball league though seems to try *not* to have a team
be all from one place. DS is the only one from our school on his
team. Last year there were 3 others, but two were the year ahead of
him in school, and one was a year behind.

Rosalie B....

I'm really only familiar with dd#2's kids and dd#3's kids. With
dd#2's kids, the coach pitch was supposed to start in kindergarten and
they are in that for 2 years (in Miami). But dd#1's child was in
coach pitch in 3rd grade (Maryland), and dd#3's child was in T-ball
until 2nd grade (TX). His little sister started T-ball at age 4, but
then they changed the rules and said she couldn't play in the spring
because she was too young by a month.

Best wishes,
Ericka

where a child who was held back always was on teams (and was friends) with
kids a grade ahead. It made it a bit harder to make friends in their own
class. I know of one case where the parents successfully petitioned to have
their child skip a grade to get back with his peer group. In the grade
behind he was one of the smarter ones in the class, once promoted back to
his peers he was decidedly in the middle academically, but his parents felt
he was much more interested in school.

All in all, the father might be right, and the boy might be immature
for his age. The alternative is that he might be a thinking,
imaginative type who is being pressurised by parents who don't value
his strengths and are measuring him by his weaknesses. Basically
are they dismissing his artistic/imaginative tendancies to focus
on the fact he is weak on the sports field?

Caledonia...

Or conversely, my 3yo is ready now.

Except for the whole confusion about red versus orange, and what letter
comes after H. Well, there's the writing thing too with the whole-hand
grip. But soccer and swimming? She's set.

bizby40...

Why is it so hard to accept that academics are not the *only*
readiness signs?

Caledonia...

I didn't mean to imply that -- although, after thinking about it for a
looong time, I think I do carry a bias (hidden?) about academics w/r/t
school readiness -- probably because my parents drilled academics as
The Only Way Out, and because for DD1 everything academic comes easily
to her.

I've been reading your postings with interest b/c my eldest (first
grade) is academically fine, and socially immature (with younger
friends, typically) for her grade (she's the youngest in the grade, but
somebody has to be). This is slooowly being heightened as she spends
some time with a second grade class for a small injection of academics
at her level. Other disparities are that she's not quite so girly as
some female classmates, and not quite so athletic as some male
classmates. On the upside, she's very tall for her age....which puts
her at average height in her class.

I know I'll feel pained and overwrought at the point of probably 3rd
grade, but right now I keep thinking that I went to school with a
zillion people Just Like Her (and still know several men and women who
had similar childhood experiences) and they seemed, all in all, to be
fine. Of course, that's what I think *now*.

Ericka Kammerer...

Here is where you hope that the studies suggesting
that most of these disparities are evened out somewhere
around third grade turn out to be applicable to your
individual child. Most studies find that the differences
are most significant in the early grades and that for most
kids, they cease to be an issue by later elementary grades.
The kids who are both socially immature *and* low ability
are most at risk for continued struggles, but most of the
rest find that it evens out for them.

Best wishes,
Ericka

(Don't stop posting -- I'm sure that in 2 more years I'll be starting a
zillion topics, like "socially immature 3rd grader: help," and your
advice will be spot-on.)

Michelle
Flutist

a child is academically gifted, it doesn't mean he or
she is any more mature. It just means that you might
have more of an issue with the child being bored,
the further you get away from his age peers. He might
still be very immature and struggle with school as
a result. There are lots of variations in every
class.

Best wishes,
Ericka

kids who aren't all that keen on team sports.

bizby40...

Well, since I don't think the kid has been to school, it would be hard
for him to cite problems there. Swimming lessons and karate lessons
are hardly "team sports". Sure, it's possible that he just doesn't
like these particular activities.

Ericka Kammerer...

I have yet to hear much evidence that he's a social
outcast (or would be). Sounds like he's the class clown,
and the teacher thinks he isn't having any problems socially
at school. To me, this sounds a lot more like a dad who
is just worried his kid isn't athletic enough and thinks his
kid will get picked on if he isn't good enough and interested
enough in team sports.

bizby40...

Again, only one of the three things he mentioned is a team sport. He
specifically said that he's worried about his interaction, or lack
thereof, with the other kids. I also see shades of him worrying that
his son isn't as mature as other kids his age, and that perhaps his
son has more trouble focusing during structured activities than other
children near his own age.

Two of my kids barely make the cutoffs for their
schools, and yet they're doing just fine. That's not to
say that *all* kids will do so, or that there's never a
reason to hold a kid back, but if everything is going fine
except for the sports, I don't think that's much of a reason
to hold a child back from moving on to the next grade.

bizby40...

And there is a kid in my son's grade who was bumped up a grade and is
a full 6 months younger than the cutoff who is also doing fine -- not
only academically, but socially as well. Seeing him with his peers,
you would never know that he is substantially younger. So I would
never recommend holding someone back "just because." But I think that
you are dismissing the father's fears. He said, "His teacher says he
is fine and that I should not worry but I *know* better." [emphasis
mine] For every parent out there that worries too much, there's
another who doesn't worry enough, and a third who worries just right.
If his gut tells him that his son needs some kind of help, I'm
inclined to trust him. There is no need to focus on the suggestion to
put him in kindergarten, there are other ways to help too. Others
have suggested finding activities that better suit his interests, I
have suggested one-on-one playdates. There are lots of options.

Banty...

Well, for me, based on this poster's anxiousness that the little boy do well in
sports and wanting to toughen him up and even "fix" him, I think the teacher
might have better insights. At least a broader set of insights.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Five years old is when they're just starting to really get social. You're
really micromanaging this, and pushing him into activities in which he's
demonstrably not interested. My advice is to back off and let him develop his
own interests, and foster those. They'll probably be a lot less frequent than
swimmming AND soccer AND karate. (Swimming is good to do just as a survival
skill regardless of interest, though).

I notice that all the activities you have him in are athletic pursuits. He may
not be an athletic kid! He may be more of an imaginative type. So let him be
himself, and listen and watch what interests *he* develops.

Nikki...

I wouldn't gage by any specific activity but more take a look at their
interations. Some kids will never be fast or skillful ;-) I'm living proof

bizby40...

Of course, but if he's the youngest *and* socially immature with
respect to other kids his age, that decreases the chance that he will
do well in school.

bizby40...

At this age, these are more "activities" than "sports". There is
generally no competition, and not much comprehension on the part of
the kids as to who is better than whom. His father seems to me to be
afraid that his child may not focus well in structured environments
(as compared to his peers), and to feel that he has not learned
appropriate ways to interact with them. After all, he says that the
boy "follows them around" making faces, etc. That doesn't sound like
a reciprocal relationship.

bizby40...

Yes, I'm well aware of your views on the subject, and really don't
want to get into the whole debate again. I wouldn't have suggested
kindergarten if I thought the child was in one already. But if he has
a December birthday, he's likely only weeks away from the cutoff at

Caledonia...

I don't think social maturity and age moves in lock-step with academic
aptitude. (I'm inferring by 'do well' that you mean academics). I think
we're all approaching this from our own experience -- from my personal

chrissypete2...

It also fell after "My kid is a good boy at heart,
likes to hug and kiss (and be hugged and kissed) and also cries a lot
when
his 3-year old sister "gets" him. He likes to draw and paint, he also
likes video games a lot which we try to restrict." but I don't see
anybody getting sarcastic about that part of it. lol. @@

chrissypete2...

I don't care how you take it. I don't take kindly to people implying I
mean something I do not. That's all.

chrissypete2...

No, it didn't say whether or not it addresses these problems, but more
the number of problems that are seen, which is significant in itself. I
already posted you could do your own search to find all of the
"inconclusive" results regarding both redshirting and not.

Ericka Kammerer...

Nevertheless, isn't it a bit silly to choose a
solution to a perceived problem without evidence that
the solution, in fact, solves the problem? Granted, there
are some equivocal areas regarding academic redshirting,
but taken as a whole, the literature seems to suggest that
for most kids, any benefit is relatively short-lived and

bizby40...

If she's doing fine now, I don't think there should be a problem as
she goes along. Poor DD -- every time she made a friend in her
younger years, the friend moved away or got taken out to homeschool.
It's happening again actually, her one good friend is going to private
middle school instead of public, so once again next year she'll be
starting over. And there is also the size issue. She's not only
shorter than her classmates, but slim too. I took four girls out
clothes shopping, and the other three wanted to shop in the junior
department. DD only wears size 8 kids!

Cathy Kearns...

Boy have I been there, had a girl starting 7th grade in a kids size 8.....If
she really wants to start in juniors, just to hang with the other kids, they
do have size 00 out there. LEI jeans are carried at Macy's and Mervyn's in
that size.

To help her fit in I did get her one or two items from abercrombie (the
kids version of Abercrombie and Fitch) so she had the cool looking styles
like the kids shopping at the junior stores. Pricey, but if you catch them
on sale I figured one or two splurges...And, of course abercrombie jeans are
half the price of Abercrombie and Fitch jeans all the time. There are still
advantages to shopping in the kids section.

bizby40...

Hmm...We don't have abercrombie or Macy's or Mervyn's, but your point
is taken. When it comes time to do the fall school shopping, I'll see
what is available in the junior's sections. I was in Target yesterday
and found that though the junior's sections did have 2X, they did not
have XS. I may need to start shopping at more upscale stores!

Cathy Kearns...

Target does go large, and even the XS are rather big extra smalls. (Bigger
than, say, Old Navy, which also does occasionally carry a junior XXS.) My
daughters get frustrated, because the clothes at Target are to their liking,
but it's hard to find something that fits. As your daughter gets bigger
there seems to be a gap between say, girls size L and junior size XS. And
they don't seem to carry a junior size smaller than a 5, or maybe they are
snapped up quick around here, I'm not sure.

bizby40...

:-) Oh, I'm not going anywhere. I'm sure I'll still be here duking
it out.

the key is picking out the subset of kids for whom the
benefits are most likely to be realized and for whom the
negatives are least likely to be realized. It seems
quite clear from the research that age alone isn't a
particularly good reason to redshirt.

Best wishes,
Ericka

chrissypete2...

Man, you are all over the place. I never said age alone was a good
reason to redshirt. lol. So what point exactly are you trying to make?

Ericka Kammerer...

I'm sorry--did you not say:

Ericka Kammerer...

which seems to suggest that you think your child should have
been held back to avoid graduating at 17 years of age regardless
of apparent academic readiness. And you also said:

I just need to get it straight is all. I have no idea what I'm posting
about anymore. Like I said, all I see is "inconclusive" as to whether
or not redshirting works or not - short-term or long-term. All I ever
put out there to the OP was that sometimes children with fall birthdays
or those children who fall before the cut-off date, can or may start
the next year, as deemed appopriate by the parent who is the only
person who really knows their child. @@

As for your solution to a "perceived problem," it does not take a
rocket scientist to figure out that with stats that high, you will more
than likely give your child an advantage by having them start a year
later where they are only two to four months older than most of the
classmates versus ten months younger than their classmates - not having
them repeat kindergarten or "holding them back".

All I had to do is think back to all of the disadvantages the young
ones in my classes had come high school - last to drive, last to be
allowed to date, earlier curfews, etc. Nobody made the time to include
them because, frankly, it was a "drag." Also, my sister was started the

Rosalie B....

I was one of the youngest in my class, and my sister skipped first
grade (because she was already reading quite well in kindergarten - I
taught her), and I don't think she suffered particularly for it. I'll
ask her.

I was offered a Ford scholarship, which in those days sent you to
college after your sophomore year in HS. My dad felt that I was not
mature enough for college, and I think he was right, although
intellectually I could have done the work perfectly OK. (I didn't
know about it until later).

My college roommate was a Ford scholar, and she said that she was
about 2 years behind doing all the social things that the kids did in
college - she was bemused by all the 'finding myself' angst for
instance. I don't know whether that was a bad thing, and it obviously
wasn't a terrible problem for her - we used to laugh about it. In her
case, her parents could not have afforded to send her to college at
all without the scholarship, whereas mine did manage.

year she was eligible, and she most definitely could have used the
extra year. I also don't agree with all of the parents I encounter
today who say "Man, I am sooo bummed. My child missed the cutoff this
year and now I have to wait another year to start them." What IS the

Ericka Kammerer...

which I think is in question, as research has found an
increase in behavioral problems in later years in kids
who are older than their grade peers--perhaps due to
frustration at being held back from that big, bad real
world.

Ericka Kammerer...

That I disagree with your comments quoted above.
Or do you believe that age isn't a significant reason, per se,
to redshirt and that there are potential downsides
to redshirting?

Ericka Kammerer...

I agree that parents get to make the decision.
I also believe that many parents get contradictory and
misleading information about the pros and cons of
redshirting, which lead many people to redshirt in
cases where it will likely provide little or no
benefit (and at the risk of negative impacts long-term).
I don't think the research is as useless as you seem
to think. I think where the research is really lacking
is identifying the subset of kids for whom redshirting
is better than the alternatives. It seems fairly
clear that long-term benefits are limited or non-
existent for most kids.

Ericka Kammerer...

On the contrary, I think the research is pretty
clear that you do *NOT* give your child much of an
advantage, particularly a long-term one, by doing so.
In fact, you deny your child a year they could have
spent learning more than they would in the alternative
situations.

rush exactly. lol.

Ericka Kammerer...

That's the problem with arguing from anecdote.
For every person who has the experience you have, I
can find another person who has the opposite experience.
That's why the research is helpful.

enigma...

exactly. i started manditory kindy when i was 4, even though
i didn't make the cut-off. my mom kinda forced the school to

bizby40...

I doubt many people would look back and think, "Gee, I wish I'd gone
to kindergarten a year earlier, or a year later." The key is to try
to give them what they need when they need it. Extra help if that's
what they need, more challenges if that's what they need. Encourage
them to do what they enjoy, don't lock them into anything before
they're ready.

chrissypete2...

Exactly. This is why I mentioned that it is doable should the OP not
know it were an option. Never said he should or should not do it, as
only he and his wife would know what would be the best fit for their
child. He said he was worried his son wasn't ready for 1st grade
socially, or what I took from it anyway, and I put that out there. I
never said he HAD to, nor that anyone HAD to, then I went into sharing
my experience and opinion - that's all.

If you had lived at home longer Dorothy, that "longer" would likely
have been your preschool years. It's less likely that it would have

toto...

We didn't have *preschools* though in my day. I wanted to go to
school and in fact begged to go at 4 which is how I ended up going
early. My dad said I could go *if the nuns would take me* and since
they said I could go, he couldn't go back on his promise to me.

I went to K and first grade in Catholic school with 60 kids in the
class for K and 65 in 1st grade. I went to public school in 2nd grade
because my folks decided that 30 kids in a classroom wss better than
65.

been tacked on at the end when you were already pretty independant and
self-sufficient. My best friend in high-school was a full year older.

Ericka Kammerer...

But this doesn't take into account that much of this
development is *age* dependent, not *grade* dependent. While

bizby40...

My whole point is that I don't think that's always true. People turn
18 every month, and yet they all graduate in June. We've already put
an artificial construct on them that ignores their chronological age.
Holding a child back, or moving them foward to try to fit their
developmental age in better with this artificial construct is at least
done on a case by case basis, and hopefully for good reason.

it varies from kid to kid, for an individual kid if he or she
is going to round that developmental curve and be yearning for
more independence at, say, 16.8 years old, that's likely to
happen at 16.8 years old regardless of whether that's 10th
grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade. If it happens in 12th
grade, then it's not a terribly long time to wait for real
independence. If it happens in 10th grade, it's going to be
a loooooong haul, especially since it is very difficult to
skip grades in high school or skip the last year of HS and
go straight to college these days. This is likely part of
why some of the studies show an increased risk of behavioral
problems in later grades in kids who are significantly older
than their grade peers. As a general rule, when circumstances
hold a child back from exercising the degree of responsibility
and independence for which he or she is developmentally ready,
it often leads to problems. It's as if there's a window
in which you need to get these things moving, and if you
don't, kids don't make the progress they should and even
sometimes backslide.

I don't even know if she was started late, or had to repeat a grade at
some point. Yet she more or less followed her peers' cues as to when
it was time to do things. She didn't take driver's ed or go looking
for a job until her peers did as juniors.

Ericka Kammerer...

I think that can be true of some kids in this situation,
but I don't think it's always the case, by a long shot.

bizby40...

Never said it was. I'm arguing *against* putting everyone into the
same slot regardless of their individual needs.

Of course there will be kids who are chafing at the bit to get out of
the house, but I don't think it's always, or even often, related to
their chronological age -- not when we're talking about the difference
a few months make.

Ericka Kammerer...

What do you think accounts for studies showing
an increased rate of behavioral issues for kids who are
older than their grade peers (whether through academic
redshirting or retention)?

toypup...

The kids who are held back are held back because they are having problems.
Might they also have problems if they are not held back? Do the studies
compare all the kids who have the same problems, some held back and others
allowed to advance? Really just curious.

Ericka Kammerer...

Yes. Well, not *all* of them, but some of them
that have found a greater incidence of behavioral problems
in kids older than their grade-peers compared groups of
similar kids and held some back and sent others on and
then saw how they did down the line. There aren't as
many longitudinal studies as we'd like, but there are
some.

Best wishes,
Ericka

bizby40...

I think correlation <> causation. That kids who are held back are the
kids who were already having academic or social problems, and so it
would make sense that they would have more behavioral issues. One of
the things you quoted before noted that it was a problem because
parents might hold the child back hoping that would "fix" them without
having to take further action. So the problem is not necessarily
related to them being held back, but instead related to them not
getting the help they need.

hschinske...

The studies compared similar populations, kids who were having similar
problems in kindergarten or whenever, and were either held back or not.
While not getting a child the help needed with learning disabilities
and such in a timely fashion is one problem, true, you'd expect that to
be most evident in their first few years of formal schooling, not
causing a train wreck years and years later, when there'd been plenty
of time for someone to notice that you had dyslexia or whatever.

hschinske...

Best wishes,
Ericka

chrissypete2...

Me? I think there is a whole lot more playing into behavioral issues
than just being a tad older than your classmates for any reason. lol.

Ericka Kammerer...

So what is the alternate explanation that you
would offer?

Best wishes,
Ericka

take me because i was already reading & she didn't want me to
be bored at home.
OTOH, i started my 5 year old in preschool again this past
year because he wasn't showing he was ready for kindy... he
switched to a different teacher in November & completely
finished the kindergarten curriculum in 4 months. so while
he's technically listed as a preschooler at the school, he'll
be starting lower elementary next fall (skipping kindy, as it
were). he already spends part of the week doing first grade
work because he has finished everything else available in
kindergarten. he also does a lot of helping other kids with
thier work & being his teacher's 'helper'.

so, if i had continued as planned, he probably would be
totally bored & getting into trouble because of that.
lee

bizby40...

This is another good point. Decisions don't have to be forever. Kids
change grades all the time. I'm not saying it's the easiest thing to
do once they've made friends, etc, but it's certainly no worse than
moving and switching schools which people do all the time.

Ericka Kammerer...

That also depends on where you are. Some areas are
very resistant to changing grades and it's nearly impossible
to get a child skipped. Seems like retention also varies quite
a bit, though there's a bit of a trend towards more retention
and less "social promotion" with a lot of the high stakes
testing that states are implementing.

Caledonia...

I do wonder if the new testing regime has put the lid on skipping
grades -- when I was a kid, funding was provided based on number of

bizby40...

I don't know. Not completely at least, since as I've said, each of my
kids has at least one kid in their grade who was moved ahead. There
is another in my son's grade that is likely going to skip to the next
when he comes back (he lives overseas for part of the year.

Ericka Kammerer...

It certainly provides one heck of a disincentive
for schools to approve it. They now tend to be resistant
to anything that might possibly result in a kid who can't
pass the tests.

Ericka Kammerer...

Yes, there are so many reasons why they can't
afford to risk lower performance on tests. It can affect
the money they get directly, as well as the resources
they get indirectly, by affecting headcount (from parents
choosing to go elsewhere by moving, public school choice,
or private school). We have a local high school that has
been fairly substantially affected by white flight. This
is a rather wealthy school district overall, but there are
some relatively disadvantaged areas. Although this school
provides a very good education, its test scores have been
disproportionately affected by some of these kids, many
of whom are new to the area (so that their lower scores
aren't necessarily even reflective of an education
received at this school or in this school system). People
see the test scores are a bit lower than those at other
schools where the student body is more uniformly advantaged,
and they decide they need to move to a different area or
put their kids in private schools. This has led to the
local school being underenrolled which affects the amount
of money the school receives and its ability to provide
more diverse offerings. I can certainly see why schools
aren't anxious to get themselves into that fix! It's a
shame some parents don't look any further than raw test
scores to evaluate school (and that some run just because
they see a student body that isn't lily white), but
that's life.

Best wishes,
Ericka

kids (and I recently discovered, additional funding was provided per
kid in the 'gifted' classes -- mainly because our gifted classes were
pull-outs, held at another school. This was not in Massachusetts).
There was little downside to the district when having children skip if
the 'skipee' could perform at an average level in their new placement,
and the aggregate test results for a school were not publicly available

Best wishes,
Ericka

And as for holding kids back, I haven't noticed much of a trend to do
that here. However, the school is not shy about holding kids back in
the earlier grades if they aren't keeping up.

Rosalie B....

That's the way it was with my dd#2's dd - she did kindy when she was 4
and her teacher told dd that she should go to first grade because
she'd be totally bored with another year in kindy. DD#2 wasn't really
ready for her to be in school full time, but she finally agreed to it.
The child is not only very bright (IMH and not prejudiced at all O
) but is also large for her age and very coordinated
physically.

Best wishes,
Ericka

experience (skipped), and DD1's (socially behind, youngest,
academically advanced), I think it all evens out in the end.

But I also don't see being a clown as socially immature, nor of making
funny faces when uninterested in doing something as indicative of
anything other than normal behavior. (Even in adults....)

Caledonia...

I think these activities, to me, are organized physical activities -- I
know that for DD2 these will be wildly appealing and will come easily
to her. For DD1, they were so very not her thing. A 'structured'
activity that isn't physical -- say, listening to someone read a story
about a topic of interest -- would be a better gauge.

But yet again, it's my own bias against very structured physical
activities for little kids -- heck, I've know 3 year olds who are
learning the rules of soccer -- and for some kids, that's a great fit.

I do think, though, that kids are pretty aware of who is better than
whom at different things -- even by the age of 5.

Banty...

I see no evidence that he's socially immature, though. Let alone enough to
justify an action which has impact throughout his childhood.

chrissypete2...

WE don't need any evidence. It was only put out there as something to
think about for this OP - not telling him what to do. Sheesh.

Banty...

And no one is to discuss? Sheesh.

Banty...

All these activities are physical. It doesn't matter how much competition, etc.
Not everyone is physical, and not everyone who's physically talented were
physical when they were all of five years old!

most. And as you say, *someone* has to be the oldest.

Banty...

Hopefully not the bored oldest.

It's a heck of an action to recommend on scant evidence.

of that. Some kids will always be more into pretending etc. Some kids

bizby40...

I'm not asking you to see the evidence, only to allow for the
possibility that his father's concerns may be justified. And inaction
has as much of an impact throughout his childhood as action does.

mature a little more slowly and the daydreamer this year will be very
focused and more phyical next year. That is OK as long as he is matched
with the right age group. What I have found to be a mistake is that I put
my slightly immature son in school at the right age but with the wrong age
group because all his classmates were older then him. He was in first grade
last year...and it was hard for him socially.

Good luck with your decision. I'm finding that it is one of the hardest
ones I've had to make as a parent...and I've already screwed up once!

dragonlady...

I'll suggest what lots of others have already: accept your child as he
is instead of trying to turn him into something else. He sounds like a

bizby40...

Okay, you responded to the first line, now how about the rest of it?

bizby40...

Or the left-behind youngest.

bizby40...

Why does one need a lot of evidence to make a suggestion? A
suggestion is just that -- "Have you considered this?" "Well, yes,
but it didn't fit because this, this, and this." Done.

sweet, imaginative, gentle, loving child -- celebrate that in him, and
stop trying to turn him into a more competitive and physically assertive
kid.

As others have suggested, he is probably in the wrong extracurricular
activities: try music, theater, art classes, possibly more individual
types of sports -- give him a chance to try all kind of other things,
and he may well suprise you. If he is, indeed, a "disaster" in all the
activities he is in, and uninterested and disengaged, why are you
continuing to KEEP him in these activities? He's probably not having a
very good time, or learning much -- it's a waste of your money and his
life energy! (To say nothing of time -- both for the parent driving him
around AND for him.)

dragonlady...

Who said anything about forcing anyone to do anything?

You still aren't addressing what benefits there are to graduating at 18
instead of 17. Lots of kids graduate at 17 -- and I don't see any
disadvantage to that.

Look, we're not talking about forcing a child to start school EARLY --
you are advocating starting them LATE, as though there is some obvious
advantage to that, but I haven't seen you actualy list any advantages to
graduating at 18 instead of 17. And I can't seem to come up with any,
nor have you given anything concrete.

I wouldn't be so certain that he'll be teased at school. If his teacher
says he's not being picked on now, why would you expect that he will
start being picked on in first grade?

Ericka Kammerer...

Maybe that just means that you're putting him into
the wrong sorts of activities. No kid is going to be skillful
and engaged in an activity that he doesn't actually enjoy and
*want* to do well at. Maybe you need to find out some things
that suit him better.

Best wishes,
Ericka