The Importance of Five Point Harnesses on carseats

This video is going around on various bulletin boards.

It's sad. Hopefully everyone here does use carseats with five point
harnesses even for children who are bigger.

xkatx...

Hm... I somehow managed to miss this whole entire topic...
I AM going to email this to some other people. First on my list, my mother,
second, my aunt.
Maybe with this to watch they'll see my point in NOT putting DS (5yo and
about 42ish lbs now) in the car with just the regular seat belt...

Froggy...

Thanks Dorothy!

It made me cry, but the importance of a 5 point restraint are so evident!
It's going on my blog!

deja.blues...

What can we do about getting old, senile, unsafe drivers off the roads?

enigma...

if you're related to them, you take thier car keys away. it
will probably cause a huge rift, but you'll be saving lives.
if you aren't related & you see an unsafe older (or young,
for that matter) driver, note the make, model, color (& year
if you can) of the vehicle, along with at least part of the
plate number and *report* the unsafe incident to police.
if more people made reports of unsafe drivers & were willing
to testify, the police could actually do something. there's
way too much "not my business" concerning other drivers &
there shouldn't be. driving is NOT a right. it is a privelege
& it can be removed when one is no longer able to drive
safely. with a rising elderly population, including the ever

Welches...

To be honest I doubt the police would do anything from a single incidence
that hadn't actually caused damage or they had witnessed. (or possible
several people had witnessed). Certainly in the case of my grandad they
would have been much happier just to give his licence back (despite him
having a collision which was clearly his fault) than listening to my mum who
told them he wasn't safe-and his optician who said that his eyesight wasn't
good enough.
I would be pretty certain you would have to have the exact numberplate for
them to do anything too.
Debbie

self-centered, entitled baby boomers, this is going to get
worse.
also, petition your state to institute annual (or every other
year) driving tests for people over 65, not just written, but
actual road tests.

lee

toypup...

What if you have an adult passenger in a dress?

Caledonia...

Mermaid...

I wish cars came equipped with 5 point harness's as standard equipment
and built in car seats that could be stocked away... I had seen one of
those in a car where you pulled down a seat cushion and it would be a
car seat or if you put the cushion up it was like a regular seat.

Anni

Lap blanket? Seriously, we use those for DD1, when she's wearing a
dress.

But honestly, I'm sure that folks were probably equally disconcerted
with the idea of a shoulder harness going across the chest....

I used to wear skirts and dresses for work (still do, in the event I
have to go to an event where I'm paid), and yucko as it seems, I'd
rather have a 5-point restraint -- regardless of what I'm wearing --

Mermaid...

The only thing that confuses me here is that the seat belt unfastened...
would it not have unfastened even with a 5 point car seat???? Would not
the whole thing have been ejected?

Marie...

It would depend on the "tested" max weight limit for LATCH and tether use.
The limit may not exceed 40-48 pounds depending on the car, and there are
car seats that are rated up to 80 pounds. Check the car and car seat manuals
for proper installation.

There was discussion elsewhere on this topic. The certified car seat techs
suspected that the seatbelt might not have been fully latched, or that he
did it himself, not the mother. The expert at the crash site determined that
the seatbelt did come unlatched, but it's not verified whether the seatbelt
came loose or was just not fully latched. One of the techs had been to the
memorial site and saw a still photo of him and his sister in the booster
seats. There was foam unusually added to the seats under their bottoms.
While it might not contribute to the seatbelt failing, the ejection could be
more likely due to foam addition. The girl's seat was not adjusted for her
height; her shoulders looked well above the belt guide. They think that the
way the seats were installed were due to user error, but they do acknowledge
the possibility of the complete seatbelt failure.

It's important to check the manuals or take the car to a certified tech and
have the car/booster seat checked. However, don't take the advice from a
video alone. That's what the techs are concerned about.

Mermaid...

I agree... my concern is an over 80 pound child (which my 10 year old is
now) or an adult... is the seatbelt failing being overlooked? 5 point
harnesses just won't solve all the problems if the seat belt issue isn't
taken care of.

Anni

Leanne...

nope, because its tethered to the top of the car... a seatbelt is a second
anchor point for the seat.

Mermaid...

I'm still wondering though if a seatbelt fails if the tether is going to
hold the up to 80 pound child and seat in place. Likely it will do
something more than a failed seatbelt would but it sounds more like the
van had a serious failure with seatbelts. I do not think seatbelts
should fail like that. Should it have been an over 80 pound person or
child then what?

Anni

than a cheesy 3-point restraint. I know there are plenty of folks here

toypup...

What's so cheesy about a 3-point restraint? Personally, though you don't
mind having your ankle-length dress pulled up and bunched up to your crotch,
I certainly do. Imagine the comfort of that and the sort of wrinkles you'd
have to wear to your next professional meeting or fine dining event.

Caledonia...

I think that in the event of an accident, one is 'floppier' in a
3-point versus a 5-point. (Which is what racecars use, and even cars
that are retrofitted for racing.) And yes, for me the whole point of
wearing a seatbelt is to minimize injuries in the event of an accident.
And yep, the seatbelt did take off some of the beading on my wedding
dress, and did crease it all those years ago.

In fact, sometimes it's downright uncomfortable to wear seatbelts at
all......they wrinkle the dress, they cut into the chest, there's that
neck-irritation thing going for shorter folks, sometimes they lock so
that it's tricky to reach forward suddenly. But you'd still wear one,
wouldn't you? Or would you opt not to, if it was uncomfortable and
would cause wrinkles in your clothes?

toypup...

I find 3-point seatbelts absolutely comfortable, so none of those
anti-seatbelt arguments apply to me. They don't wrinkle my clothes more
than sitting in the carseat without one does, so I don't mind them at all.
I would mind a 5-point one, though.

Nan...

Mermaid...

Right but if your child is over 80 lbs and you have him or her
seatbelted in and the seat belt fails you are in no different a position
than she was with her 3 year old son... the person/child will be
ejected. You can't 5 point harness a 100 lbs child! That is what I'm
saying.

And what about the back facing car seats you belt in... no latch for
those... when the belt fails it's going to eject the car seat! So the

Ericka Kammerer...

? You can get LATCH-equipped rear-facing seats.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Mermaid...

I've not seen them... we have a rear facing seat that is buckled in with
an attachement that sits on the seat and can be seperated from the seat.
I will look into it but I don't see how you could logically latch the
seat.

Ericka Kammerer...

For the infant-only bucket seats, you can get ones that
have a base that uses LATCH. There are also convertible car seats
with LATCH suitable for rear-facing infants (or toddlers).

Best wishes,
Ericka

Mermaid...

I bought ours 2nd hand and it's about time we move him to forward
facing. I'm a bit perplexed as to where it would harness... we will be
moving him to the way back when it's forward facing. I'm sure we will
figure it out and soon.

Ericka Kammerer...

If it's one of the infant-only bucket seats (the
ones that fit into a base and click in and out), it
*can't* go forward facing. Also, he needs to be at least
a year old and at least 20 pounds before going forward-facing,
and most of those infant-only seats are only rated to
something like 17-20 pounds.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Mermaid...

It goes up to 25 pounds so long as the child is not longer than the
seat. Our little one is 21 and he's a shortie at 1 year old (15 to 25
percentile in all margins). It can go forward facing but the base has to
go at that point... the base doesnt' go forward facing.

Ericka Kammerer...

Hmm...I don't think I've ever seen an infant bucket
seat that could go forward facing, with or without the base.

I do need to go look at seats... our larger seat is too big for him. I
took him in in the car seat we use and the doc said to keep him in it
for now. But what next. He will soon be out of this one. I know I
put my daughter in a 3 point seat... or moreso one of those that has the
bar that comes over the head with the shoulder straps on it. We don't
have it anymore because it is terribly outdated but I don't know what
next with this little one. I know I had my daughter in the 3 point seat
too early but she didn't fit the infant seat at 1 year old anymore (95
percentile)

Ericka Kammerer...

Really, any convertible seat should be fine. They
virtually all have 5-point harnesses and can be used with
newborns, so they certainly shouldn't be too big for your
babe.

Best wishes,
Ericka

issue goes beyond getting a 5 point harness... you have to make sure the
manufacturers of the seat belts and vans/cars will make sure they work
well or make sure your child is belted in properly each time.

Anni

I remember hearing, "but it will wrinkle my dress" as a complaint not
to wear seatbelts.
In your scenario, I'd simply find a way to take my
needs-to-look-perfect dress with me and change there.

enigma...

you know, those are pretty much exactly the reasons people
who refuse to wear 3 point restraints have used...

toypup...

Yeah, but you have to admit that the wrinkles to a special occasion dress
from a 5-point seatbelt are much worse than any wrinkle from a 3-point
seatbelt.

in MA who view seatbelts as optional (reminds me of the anti-motorcycle
helmet folks -- as a friend said, 'that's because they don't have
anything to protect'), but would you rather be stylish or safer? If I
were driving, I'd be apologetic, but also passing back the lap
blankets...

Rosalie B....

And I was t-boned by a young man - totaled my car and broke four ribs.
Not last week, but about 10 years ago. And I've been on wet streets
and put on the brakes (before I reached 60) when the light turned
yellow, and couldn't stop and skidded through the intersection.
Didn't hit anyone but if I had, it would have been a t-bone type

Tori M...

The model that goes to 80 lbs is 250$ about according to what I found
online.. I will most likely try to get a 5 point car seat that turns to a
booster for Xavier but I doubt Bonnie will be going back to a 5 point
because she has a booster already and she is already 35 lbs.

Marie...

Tori that is nuts. In what area of hte country do you live?!!? At Walmart

Tori M...

Polk County WI
At Walmart

where I live, a seat up to 80lbs is way under $100. For the price of only a
few cartons of ciggies.

Tori M...

I dont smoke, Jeff does but less then a carton a month.

And I thought a booster seat was for 40lbs and up, not 35? Anyway, you *can*

Tori M...

Our booster is from 30 lbs up. I looked at that before I bought it.

get things cheaper what what you seem to think!
Marie

Nan...

Cost about $130, although it goes only to 65 pounds.

Tori M...

Hmm that is a neat car seat... I will have to look into it more in March
when our finances lighten up a bit.

Nan...

Yep, me too. Miss A is getting closer and closer to 40 pounds and her
carseat is only to 40 lbs with the harness.

But, at least you know you can have your car LATCH equipped for free
:-)

accident..

The propensity to have accidents isn't necessarily age related. If an
older person has an accident, then it is because they are old. If a
non-old person has an accident, then it because they weren't paying
attention, or for some other reason. And really it is the same with
older people. Some people are just not good drivers - has very little
to do with age. My younger sister has taken my mom's car and in the
first month she had it, she had two accidents.

Marc...

No it is not necessarily age related. However, there are several clear
groups that are over represented in accidents:
a) Newly licensed drivers.
b) Males under the age of 30
c) The aged.

I know here in Australia that government at all levels and insurance address
the first two by trying to improve the education drivers receive before they
receive their full licence, and insurance companies punish young drivers
with very expensive premiums. Why should the aged be exempt from being
assisted into a 'safer' life style for others as well as themselves? Isn't
that discrimination?

Rosalie B....

It's not discrimination that I object to, it is the Big Brother
aspect of it.

Banty...

"Big Brother" meaning....? So there should be no driving tests at all? Even
for 16 year olds? No licensing? What what.

Banty...

Yep.

No one is saying "over age XX, therefore no license (or limited priveledges)".
What's been proposed is that people over a certain age, which *correlates*, and
correlates for rather well-known and established reasons, with diminished
dirving ability, therefore should be **tested** at more frequent intervals.

Rosalie B....

When I was only in my 40s I took a motorcycle test with my dd#2. DH
drove the cycle in the back of the pickup to the testing site (because
there was a requirement that someone with a learner's permit have a
licensed driver with them, and that's hard to do on a motorcycle
although dh had his license), and my dd (who was then 16) took the
test. The examiner gave her every accommodation and she passed. When
I took it, he basically said - no you don't pass and didn't want to
let me try again. I think this was age discrimination, although I
wasn't elderly at the time.

Banty...

Funny - young drivers feel themselves the object of discrimination, too, and
have anecdotes to tell.

Maybe the difference is between someone whom the tester expects to improve with
experience, vs. someone clearly with set habits.

*Any* test program will need to be administered correctly. Again, it comes down
to either testing across the board, testing those in certain high-risk
categories, or not testing at all. Testing *one* high-risk category but
exempting another high risk category doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't mind taking a road test, but I'm afraid that the test would
not be well thought out.

We do, in our state, require a vision test every time the license is
renewed, and I think that vision problems are a large part of driving
errors by the elderly. I wouldn't mind having a vision test, even
every year.

toypup...

It seems that every time there is a driver who mistakes the gas pedal for
the brake pedal, it's an elderly driver.

Cathy Kearns...

I was standing at an admittedly confusing intersection in our downtown area,
waiting to cross the street. While waiting for the light I saw two
different mature drivers turn into the wrong side of the street (going the
wrong way for 100 yards until the center divider opened for another
intersection...). They weren't following each other, they didn't come from
the same direction, they were just confused. Our area has many drivers over
the age of 65. Twice I've been called to the door by different elderly
neighbors wondering if I by chance witnessed the accident they were involved
in on the major street near my house. I don't try and pull out across
traffic on that busy street, I go down a few blocks and either go out at the
light, or make a right turn. I taught my daughter that some streets, though
it may be legal to turn left, it's usually not safe during peak traffic
times, and this is how we get around it. And yet these elderly people, with
slow reaction times, were trying to beat out four lanes of traffic on the
only street in the city with a speed limit above 30. People age at different
rates. I see 70 year olds playing tennis. I see 60 year olds having
trouble finding a parking space in an open lot. But when eyesight, reaction
time, and clear thinking goes, it goes. Perhaps they don't need a driving
test as much as a simulator test. Remember those, with the kids running
into the street and the weird intersections?

enigma...

an 84 year old woman in Manchester hit a 6 year old on a
scooter & dragged him under her car for a block, with a
witness to the accident chasing her & beating on the car
trying to get her to stop.... she did not see the child at
all. she was shocked & angry when the state suspended her
driver's license.
the boy survived. it isn't known yet if he will have
permanant vision or brain damage. he lost one ear.
lee

Mermaid...

Every time?!! I think you should check your sweeping accusations at the
door. ; )

We had a few such instances in our small town we just moved from... even
though the elderly were fast becoming the majority it was not the
elderly who ran their car through the front door of the market and circle K.

Anni

Banty...

Well, in all fairness she said "*seems* that every time..". That's not quite a
blanket statement as if it were a fact - it's a description of a perception.

And, sure, younger drivers can have accidents, too. No-one's saying otherwise.

So the 85 year old capable person can continue to drive, with the DVM's
blessings.

It's that seniors would be under any scrutiny at all that sticks in people's
craw. Well, young drivers have to deal with it for the reasons of inexperience
and still-developing judgement, those at the other end of the competence-age
curve can, too.

Banty...

Yep.

We recently moved my 76 year old mother closer to my brother into an assisted
living facility, and told her no driving. She had recently had an accident -

bizby40...

I had a car totaled by a high-school aged driver who did that. She
ended up crossing the line in the parking lot and ramming two cars
(one of them mine) and the other car rolled back into a third car.

her story was "I was "completing my left turn.." when she was hit by an oncoming
driver. "In other words, Mom, you didn't yield to oncoming traffic." She was
getting to the point that she'd *expect* others to slow, stop, or move around
her, as a show of kindness.

The problem, though, was that she lived at least 900 miles from any family
member, and, if it weren't for the other changes, we'd not be around to enforce
anything concerning her driving. My family is out west, but it seems about 2/3
of the people here in New York state have their elderly parents in Florida...

So I really support driving tests, on-road, over a certain age, also (I'd make
it 70). They don't mind doing it on teens, who need to geddaround and have a
bucket of pride, too, so thy shouldn't feel constrained from requiring it for
seniors. Seniors should set up their living situations to be amenable to public
transportation if they can't have or won't have driving help from family. It's
called "planning".

Rosalie B....

I don't support such a thing because I've just turned 69, and I'm a
perfectly good driver, as is my dh who is 70.5. I could easily pass
the road driving test. What I probably would have trouble with (and
had trouble with when I was 16) would be parallel parking. And I
don't think it is necessary to be able to parallel park in order to be
a safe driver. I think having to drive a car with a standard shift
would be a more appropriate test.

bizby40...

I agree that parallel parking isn't a necessary skill in many areas.
I have actually acquired the skill quite recently after getting a
downtown job and having to park on the street. I'm inordinately proud
of my new-found skill BTW.

But why do you think having to drive a car with a standard shift would
be more appropriate? The vast majority of people never find
themselves in a situation where they *must* drive a particular random
car that is not their own. And if they do find themselves in that
situation, at least in the US, the random car is far more likely to be
automatic than standard.

I would think that the average person is much more likely to find
themselves needing to parallel park than to drive a standard shift in
an emergency (that is, without having time to learn).

Bizby
(who owned a stick shift for 12 years)

Marc...

So, ok you would pass the test with no problem. Are you arguing that because
YOU would pass the test with no problem the test should not be applied to
your age group at all? YIKES. Or are you arguing that you should have a
modified test with an accompanying restricted licence? Which I would have no
argument against.

My mom drove until she was 96, and she was also a good driver (she
started at 14 on a Model T). She did restrict herself to daytime and
good weather and near home, and did not go on long trips without
another person to do the driving. I would not mind riding with her.

Some people have Alzheimer's at 75, and others never do. People are

Marc...

Which is why the age should be set at an pre-determined time (which the
actuaries will calculate with great accuracy), like everything else in this
life of ours - not set to suit one particular person.

all different. I just feel that people often treat elders without
respect. They talk over them as if they weren't there, or as if they
were deaf or incapable.

Marc...

I know what you are talking about and it is not right. On the same point
though, there are an awful lot of older people that behave as if just
because they are old they have the right to behave any old way they like and
get away with it, which ain't right either. Just because someone is old
doesn't mean they don't need to respect other people's right to drive safely
on the road.

Marc

I also have to confirm that as an EMT I've run into the rather puzzling and
dismaying attitude on the part of the police regarding senior drivers. It seems
they all imagine all the elderlies to be their own family.

Mermaid...

That is great. My mother is 80. She knows her limitations and drives
only where needed. Some of her driving is far but she won't take the
highway or freeway. I personally think city streets are more dangerous
but that's my thing. I guess it's simply what you feel comfortable

Rosalie B....

I don't have any family nearby. I live in a very rural county without
access to public transportation. Well - there is a kind of bus that
runs around the county, but I don't live anywhere near where it goes.
If I have trouble walking (which I don't yet), I would have to walk
over a mile to get it. And I would not be able to get to a lot of
places because the shuttle bus doesn't go there. I wouldn't be able
to get to the doctor's office for instance. And there aren't even any
taxicabs that I could get for that.

We moved to this house in 1973 when Bob was stationed nearby and we
had 4 children. I'm not about to move out now, just because someone
thinks I should 'plan' better. My mom was considering going into
assisted living when she suddenly became ill and died. I suspect that
if she had lived longer, she would have done that - but at 97 and not
at 60. At 60 I was still working, and my job required me to do a lot
of driving. In one month, I averaged 125 miles/workday of driving for
work and that did not include commuting.

Banty...

OK - you live in a rural area without help, and don't want to move, but
apparently you're up to it. No problem there.

But, sooner or later, unless you're hit by a bus, there will need to be some
plan for diminishing capacity. And the public has an interest in it as far as
that diminishing capacity may endanger the public. Exactly how things are
handled isn't being specified - it's just that it somehow has to be managed in a
way that's consistent with not risking public safety. I don't know how you can
get around that.

toypup...

Exactly.

One thing I liked about San Francisco was that the elderly were so
independent. They weren't homebound because they coudln't drive. They used
public transportation.

Rosalie B....

I think my age group (65-70) is way to young to be burdened with
testing or restrictions, except maybe for eye testing.

Banty...

I don't know about the testing - restriction tradoff, but I'm 51 - OK, mebbe I'm
not exactly looking at this issue down the nose, but I have no qualms whatsoever
about needing to test yearly at some point in the future.

with. The freeways though in AZ are getting more dangerous and
definitely would take a bit of work to get on in a busy session.

Age is relative. My mom recently had an accident and she ended up with
her back end dented in. The accident ended up being mutual with her and
the person that hit her. This woman was on her cell phone. Tried to
nail my mom because of her age but she blew it when she admitted to
being on her cell phone and was asking tried to lie about injuries
after the fact. Silly people.

Anni