Montessori question

I was reading about the Montessori philosophy and while it all made a

bizby40...

I'd just give up trying to cook for this family. It sounds like
you're causing more trouble in your attempts to help. If it's in
your budget, maybe you could offer to take them out one night instead.

toypup...

She could even be like my mom. My then BF and I were taking her out. We
asked her where she would like to eat. She said anywhere. We named off a
few places. She said she didn't care. We said Sizzler, she said okay. So,
we go driving there and when we were nearly there, she sighed that she
didn't like Sizzler!

bizby40...

My mom is really picky about restaurants. If for some reason we go
somewhere that she hasn't chosen -- like because she has come to visit
us and doesn't know the local restaurants -- she will sit there and
sigh and moan and complain that nothing is right. Sometimes I think
they regress back into toddlerhood.

dragonlady...

OMG -- actual conversation last time we were there: picture a room with
me, MIL, DH, and BIL, who had just come over. The four of us were going
out to dinner:

MIL: Where do y'all want to go? Should we go to Sizzler?

Me: Sizzler would be OK, if that's where you'd like to eat.

MIL: Well, I'm kind of tired of Sizzler, but if that's where you want
to eat, it's fine with me.

Me: No, I'd be happy eating somewhere else, but I don't know the
restaurants here. Where would you recommend?

MIL: No, no; if you all want to eat at Sizzler, I don't mind. I've
just eaten there a lot lately, so I'm a little tired of it, but I don't
mind eating there again.

Me (after a few more rounds which resulted in no recommendations from
her....): *I* don't want to eat at Sizzler. Is there someplace else
that would be OK for you?

MIL: (sounding confused): You don't like Sizzler? Well, I guess we
can eat somewhere else, then.

(During this conversation, DH and his brother were just cracking up.
BIL, who lives close to her, leaned over and whispered to DH, "You guys
owe me." DH said, "We know, and we thank you." If we lived close by,
I'd have to learn to cope -- but a week or so with her and I'm about
ready to start gnawing off my own arm to get away from it.)

dragonlady...

That's what I do when I visit them now -- but back then, DH and I were
both in graduate school. Plus there's no way his Dad would let US pay
if we had gone out! (Or his Mom either -- we can barely get her to
allow us to pay now.) Plus, she was working full time, while the rest
of us were home during the day (school break, FIL retired -- but neither
of them cooked at all.), so it just made more sense for DH and I to do
the bulk of the cooking while we were there. MIL was never upset about
my cooking, and seemed to appreciate not having to cook dinner after she
got home -- it just isn't possible to satisfy her. I don't think I've
ever yet given her a gift she liked, for example -- and out of 5
daughter-in-laws, she's never fully approved of any of us. I've decided
to stop worrying about it.

MIL and that particular BIL were a PIA, but the amount my FIL (and my
other BIL) enjoyed my cooking made it worth it. (Both DH and I are
really good cooks!) I really liked my FIL -- I wish he'd been around
longer.

lot of sense, I didn't understand why they avoid praising a child when
it successfully completes an exercise. Can anyone explain this? Thanks!

Jeanne...

My understanding is that satisfaction comes from successfully completing
the exercise rather than an external source such as a teacher or parent.
This way, the child wants to do the task for her/himself rather than to
gain praise or compliments from an adult.

FWIW, it seems to work. The children "drill" themselves by repeatedly
doing a task, working with a specific material because they want to
rather than they have to. This reinforces the learning process, as well
as teaching younger children how to properly use material or do an exercise.

Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward...

Okay, that makes sense. Now, here's a real-life situation: a little
9-month old boy learns to wave (eg. wave goodbye). The parents are
ecstatic and show the child that he's done really well by showering him
with praise and applause.

What would a Montessori-appropriate response be here?

Jeff...

You wave back and smile. You just don't have the applause and praise.

Seriously, it seems that idea behind Montessori is that the child learns by
operating the environment. The reward is the knowledge gained and the
natural response from the environment. The natural response for waving
bye-bye is that other people smile and wave back.

It's kind of like when 8-years move their arms up and down like they are
pulling on a rope when they drive by a truck. The truck drivers blow their
horns. The kids are operating the enviornment. You just don't praise them
for it.

Cindy Kandolf...

Waving back!

Saying "Look at Baby! Baby's waving bye-bye!" - that is,
acknowledging what the baby is doing.

If the child enjoys it, a game where Mom or Dad leaves the room when
Baby waves bye-bye, then comes back and waves hello, can also be a lot
of fun. Some babies at this age *really* don't enjoy having their
favorite people leave, though, so you have to consider the child's
personality.

Montessori theory doesn't say you should *never* praise, by the way,
just be sparing with the praise and applause. For a small child,
learning to do something that changes the environment is reward in
itself, and if parents and others show approval, that's great too.
The problem with excessive praise is that over time it can override
this system so that the reward becomes the praise, not the learning
itself. And if you get yourself used to saying "Good job" all the
time, and get your child used to hearing it, what will you do when the
child does something really extraordinary?

- Cindy Kandolf, mamma to Kenneth (12) and Robert (6)
cindy@nethelp.no ****** Bærum, Norway
Bilingual Families Web Page:

Chookie...

I feel very uneasy at this question. Montessori is not a parenting
philosophy. It is an educational philosophy. Anyway, what ought to drive our
parenting is not a philosophy, but our child's personality and needs. When
theory drives a parenting style, it drives right over the child.

Jeanne...

To wave goodbye and leave? Just kidding. :)

I'm not sure you need Montessori-appropriate responses in every
situation. I was referring to the child within the Montessori
environment (e.g., school). I find that DD (8 years old) behaves VERY
differently in her school (she's been there since she was just under 3,
except for 1.5 years in public elementary) than at home. And this is
pretty much the same for all the other children. In school, the
children are on task; they put away materials before getting out new
material; they help each other. At home, the children run amok
(focus?), they leave stuff out, and if anything, DD sabotages her little
brother every chance she can. After puzzling about this, I finally
figured it out that it was okay. I mean, I behave differently at work
than I do at home, so it must be the same for the children.

Marie...

That's why people comment on how well-behaved my children are, and I comment
on how well-behaved other children are, and we all(moms) just look
exasperated.
Marie

Jeanne...

LOL. That explains things. DD is very well-behaved when she is with
other people and NOT with me.

When she was younger, I wondered how she would do at birthday parties,
playdates, school, etc. Invariably, when I picked her up, I received
comments about how polite (said "please" and "thank you"), helpful
(entertained and helped younger kids), and generally behaving in a way
I've rarely seen.

toypup...

That's why my IL's think they are so much better at parenting our kids than
we are. Don't get me wrong, I think they have a wealth of experience and am
eager for them to impart their wisdom. However, one of the reasons I think
the kids behave so well with them is because the kids are in a different
environment; and the kids are not competing with each other for mom and
dad's attention, something I think all kids do.

Marie...

All our parents seemed to understand the difference. In fact, both my mom
and my MIL commented to me that kids always behave better for other people
than their own parents.
Marie

bizby40...

When my kids were younger, they behaved *horribly* at my in-laws, and
I do lay the blame squarely on the in-laws. From the moment we
arrived, Little Miss and Little Master became a spoiled prince and
princess. Whatever they want, they got. And the more they got, the
more they demanded. I'd try to discipline them, and my in-laws would
say, "Oh, it's okay, really. It's hard for kids when they're in a new
place." By the time we got home, they'd be all screwed up, and it
would take me a week to get things back in control again.

Marie...

My MIL would say things like that (Oh, it's ok) but for certain things I HAD
to stand my ground. My MIL would offer the kids other things to eat when she
had cooked a nice meal, and I would make it very clear that my children eat
what is cooked for them. It took awhile for her to stop offering (she has
custody of my neice, who always requires separate meals even now at age 7).

dragonlady...

The first Christmas we were married, we went to my in-laws for the week.
A few days after Christmas, I made turkey teterazzini with the leftovers

Barbara...

I'm sure that you're a wonderful cook. I cannot say the same of
myself, but I do make a few dishes that many guests have complimented,
including a poached salmon dish. I make other standard fare, including
tuna salad. Even the scent of either of these makes my 9 year-old son
gag. I understand this; there are certain things that I simply cannot
eat because of the scent, texture, or other issues. So if we're having
something that repulses my son, I do permit him to have an alternative,
even if that winds up being a bowl of cereal and an ear of corn. When
we're having guests whose tastes I'm not completely familiar with, I
will often make two main dishes to ensure that everyone has something
s/he enjoys.

I don't consider this an *indulgence* Its simply recognition that not
everyone enjoys the same food, and that no one should be forced to face
a choice between hunger and eating something s/he finds repugnant. So
while your turky tetrazzini may have been award-winning, you have to
recognize that not everyone will like it.

Marie...

When a child will *only* eat corn dogs(weenies, not even eat the breading,
but won't eat weenies by themselves), fried cheese sticks, chicken nuggets
and fries, it is indulgence. And unhealthy and nothing to grin at about the
child being overweight and "cute".
Marie

Banty...

Plus, being invited for a social dinner at someone's home is not supposed to
guarantee the serving of one's favorite yummy-goody foods. It's supposed to be
a gathering for people to enjoy each other. This scene didn't help that much.

Even if the turkey tetrazinni was truly unpalatable in the 14 year old's view,
he should be learning to cut up the main dish and push it around on his plate
enough to make it non-obvious that he's not eating it, and fill up instead on
the food that is served with it. And grab a burger on the way home if he
absolutely has to.

I have a growing and hungry nearly-14 year old myself. But no way would I let
him demand a special meal for himself.

If he's overweight (is he? - I missed that, and it's hard in Newsguy to read
back without losing the reply post in progress), it's really not good. If he
has to have his favorite yummy-goody wherever he goes, and he's being catered to
about it, it's putting food WAY too central in his life, and there could be
lifelong health consequences to it.

Barbara...

dragonlady...

I had no problem with him eating something else -- in fact, I would not
have been horribly offended if HE had quietly gotten up and fixed
himself something else, and I know I'd have been OK with being asked to
keep some of the turkey, pasta and mushrooms separated out for him to
eat (he apparently didn't eat anything where the foods were mixed
together). His mom (my MIL) knew what I was fixing, and could have told
me that in advance.

I certainly would have had no problem with him toying with his food
through dinner and then fixing himself (or his mom fixing something else
for him) later -- it's what I'd have expected of my kids by the time
they were six or seven if they were served a meal that the didn't like.
They never would have sat down and say, "eww -- what is this stuff?"

My problem was that she let her dinner get cold to wait on a *14 year
old* to fix him something else, because the thought of him going hungry
because he didn't like what someone else had cooked (wouldn't even try
it) for the 20 minutes or half hour we'd have been at the dinner table
was unthinkable.

Jeff...

I remember how, when I was teen or preteen, other people would comment how
well behaved I was when I was with them. My parents wished that were true at
home.

For a 14 *month* old, maybe -- but not a teenager.

Knowing your son's issues with those dishes, if you had a houseguest who
was fixing a special dinner that you knew your son would not be able to
eat, I'm reasonably certain that you would either let the cook know so
s/he could fix something else, or fix something else yourself, or
(depending upon the relationship) quietly feed your son somthing else
before dinner so he wouldn't be hungry, or have him fix himself
something else. But would you leave the table to cook something else
while everyone else was eating dinner?

And where did you get this? I certainly didn't see this in the
comments that I responded to. And it certainly doesn't refer to MY
son, who doesn't even LIKE corn dogs (although he does like turkey hot
dogs), fried cheese sticks, *most* chicken nuggets, or french fries
from anywhere but the local pizza place, and who is tall with an
*average* build for his age.

dragonlady...

I assume she's talking about some other kid she knows and tries to
love....

And things like bringing presents for both girls at one birthday. That seems
to be the two main things I can remember that I've had to be firm on.
Also, grandparents seem to have a hard time seeing their grandchildren being
fussed at. I do understand that but it won't help matters any, does it!

I finally found my backbone and just said, "No, it's not okay." And
I'd tell them no, and they'd say, "But Grandma said I could!" and I'd
say, "That's too bad, because mom trumps grandma."

Welches...

I have the opposite problem with mine. Who gives a 3 year old a bar of
chocolate just before dinner, and when they ask if they can eat it now are
told "no because it's nearly dinner time!" Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Or gives them a huge helping which I say is too much, then tells them they
can't have pudding unless they've finished.
Yes. Mum trumps grandma is a good phrase.
Debbie
Debbie

Marie...

toypup...

Wish our IL's understood. They kept making comments like how the kids
behaved so well for them because they knew how to set the boundaries,
implying we don't. Or how DD didn't shriek for them while we were gone,
implying why does she only shriek when we're there. Well, she shrieks while
we're there because the kids start fighting. And they start fighting
because the dynamics have changed and they want our attention. They fight
more when we're at IL's because we're in a different place, and I think they
are competing with each other and IL's for attention. I lock her and myself
up in our room when we're there when she's having a shrieking fit, but that
doesn't help the fact that she's shrieking.

Again, don't get me wrong, I think my IL's have lots of wisdom to impart. I
think they did a wonderful job raising their two kids who turned out
beautifully. I look up to them for advice more than my own parents, but I
don't think the kids behave for them the two hours we're gone to a movie
merely because they know how to set boundaries and we don't. We don't live
near them. In recent history, they've maybe only cared for them for about 4
houss total. That the kids behave so well for them makes them think we're
just not parenting properly. I think that bothers me because I love them
and want to impress them and wish they'd understand.

OTOH, I understand that if they see a situation every time they see us, they
think that situation must exist always, even when they are gone. It's hard
to think that their own presence changes the dynamics of the situation, so
we are not on normal operating mode.

bizby40...

Have you ever talked to them and explained this? Being as they are
lovely people, I would think/hope they might be open to listening.
And....you know, they may not think you're bad parents at all. Could
that be your own insecurity that makes you think that? I don't mean
being insecure in your parenting skills, but being a little unsure of
how well your in-laws accept you? Even after being married for 12

toypup...

Yes, I think some of that could be it. I have that in the back of my mind
to keep myself from feeling to badly. It's just when DD starts shrieking
and MIL says, "She doesn't do that when *I* take care of her;" or when we
get home from the movies and FIL says, "They were wonderful," (okay, that
part I was happy with), then he adds, "They know they can't get away with
things when we're around." Then, the kids act up later while we're there,
and the IL's remind us how the kids don't do it when they are in charge.

bizby40...

Yeah, that's a bit insensitive.

No, I haven't talked to them about it. DH thinks I'm oversensitive about
this, so you might be right.

FWIW, they think SIL's (DH's sister) runs a certain way, because that's how
it is when they are there. That is what I see when we are all together.
However, it is a totally different dynamic when MIL and FIL are not there.
I have a completely different impression of SIL's family, because we see a
totally different side of it. It's is very easy for me to see how the
presence of people (even ourselves) affects the whole dynamics of the
family. And I know that what we see is probably not the whole picture.

bizby40...

I've always considered my SIL to be the golden DIL -- that my in-laws
much preferred her to me. Then one day she mentioned that she always
thought they didn't like her because she was too loud and pushy. I
always thought they liked her better because she was so friendly. It
was an eye-opener. The funny thing is that my in-laws are the kind of
people that will never say a bad word about anyone, ever. So it's
rather odd that *both* of their daughters-in-law have ended up feeling
judged and criticized.

Banty...

Ah, that's because, with nothing to go on as far as input, insecure feelings get
listened to.

years, I still can't say I'm "comfortable" with my in-laws or in their
house. They've never done or said anything to make me feel like they
think badly of me, but I'm still always just a little on edge there.
That is, even *I* act differently there than I do at home.

My dad and his girlfriend let my daughters stand on the back of the shopping
cart, and I don't let them do that so I've had to hear "But papa lets me..."
They do get old enough at some point to understand grandparents let you do
lots of things mom doesn't. I've come around to decide that if the
grandparents allow things that are NOT dangerous (too many cookies or
whatever), I just let them. Or look the other way lol My kids know the
difference. Sort of like when you have to put up with "advice" from elderly

bizby40...

Yeah, that's where I started out. And most of the things they were
doing were only a matter of too much attention, and how can that be
bad? But grandma would go in to read them a bedtime story, and an
hour later she'd still be there reading story after story. Or DD
would want to play tea party, and the world stops while grandma gets
out her antique tea part set and sets everything up. I think that's
why it took me so long to intervene -- there was nothing really
inherently wrong in what they were doing. And it's nice that their
grandparents were showing them so much love and attention. And they
were being very sweet really. It's just that when a child's every
whim is catered too, they can start to feel very entitled. Think of

bizby40...

Yes, I think you're right. Every present they get is the best one
ever, every meal you serve is the best meal ever, and so on. At first
you get a bit taken aback, but after that it's just, "Yeah, right.
Whatever." The thing is, that since you can't trust anything they
say, you just don't know where you stand, and that's disconcerting.
I'll admit that we sometimes fight in my family, but we always make
up, and at least you know where you stand.

Veruca Salt, "Daddy, get me a golden ticket, NOW!" And it's amazing
how quickly that transformation could take place. So we'd go, the
kids would get progressively wilder while the grandparents clucked
sympathetically and said, "Oh, it's okay." and then, as I said, I'd
have to take them home and try to live with them.

people and you just nod and smile...

Jeff...

I agree with you on everything but one thing. I have to take issue with the
phrase "elderly people." Please understand, I don't think you were trying to
put down elderly people at all. I think you just picked a phrase that was
less than ideal. No offense was taken. It's just one of those things that

toypup...

What phrase should be in its place?

LaTreen Washington...

Old F*ckers

LaTreen Washington...

Old F*ckers

Jeff...

"inlaws" or "grand-parents" would work.

bizby40...

Yes, except that I think she may truly have meant "elderly" as in
those old enough to perhaps be starting to get a bit senile. Old
enough that you may have to treat them with kid gloves. Old enough
that you've reached the point that they've done their job taking care
of their family, now it's their family's turn to take care of them.

Many, many in-laws and grandparents have not reached that stage yet.

toypup...

But what if they are old but are neither her IL's nor GP's?

Nan...

"Aged Americans"

Banty...

I'd share Toypup's frustration with this.

She *meant* elderly. She didn't mean "in laws" or "granparents", she meant what
she meant.

Now, it's fair game as to whether or not you want to discuss with her that the
elderly should be treated any differently as far as their advice (I can see two
sides to that question).

But to do and way that she shouldn't refer to their age at all? C'mon. That's
tantamount to telling her she can't express her opinion. "Elderly" is a
perfectly good term.

caught my eye.

I mentor a kid who is 11 years old. He was adopted by a non-related elderly
person in her mid-70s. The kid is doing well in school and is quite happy.
He has good values. And an adopted family who loves him. All because of the
caring of an "elderly" person.

I don't think the issue that the ILs are elderly, but they they have
different ideas about rearing kids than you do. Remeber, no offense was
taken, because I don't think any was meant. And, there was just a
less-than-ideal selection of phrases in informal writing. But it just caught
my eye.

Jeff

Marie