longer school day

I was invited to an educational foundation leadership circle for our local
elementary school district. Already the educational foundation provides
money to pay for class size reductions in grades K-3 and junior high english
and math, and provide PE programs, art docents, and vocal and instumental
music programs. They were brain storming that if they could double the
amount of money they raised, what would they use it for. (Kind of pie in
the sky thinking, if there were something really good, maybe they would
think about expanding their fund raising...) The superintendent surprised
me with his number one wish, which was to increase the length of the school
day, perhaps to fit in things like drama. My first thought was I wouldn't
like the length of the school day increased, as my children barely have time
for homework, any afterschool sports, and downtime as it is. And when
exactly would I squeeze in orthodontist and doctor appointments in the
already short time between school and end of business. My second thought
was why couldn't they instead mail the report cards home, and use the last
10 days of school as school, or even for a drama program? So I'm wondering,
as parents of elementary school kids, what would you think of longer school
days. Or for those who have school until 3:15 or so for K-3rd grade, 3:30
for 4th-6th, how is it working for you?

Barbara...

One's (private) school is 8:20 am until 3:15 pm M-Th, with an earlier
dismissal on Fridays (for Shabbat) until the clocks are changed, for
grades 1-4; grades 5-8 are dismissed at 4:15 (except Friday, yadda,
yadda). There are after school activities available for the kids, and
homework gets done well before bedtime. None of the kids seem to have
a problem with the schedule.

One sees the doctor once a year (unless he's sick ... and therefore not
in school), and the dentist twice a year, so we don't really see that
as a huge problem; his doctor is available until 7 pm in any event. I
suppose that it *will* get worse if he needs braces, but I see plenty
of the kids at the school with them, so their parents must be able to
fit in the appointments.

I like the idea of enrichment programs like drama and music being
conducted throughout the school year, not just in the last few days, so
the kids can really learn and develop over time. But I hear you on the
last 10 days thing. At One's school, with one week left, they are
still covering new material. Then again, the teachers have several
in-service days at the end of the year to clear and clean things up.
At our local public schools, OTOH, there are no in-service days, and
summer school starts the day after the end of the regular school year,
so the teachers really don't have much choice but to start collecting
things and cleaning out their classrooms in the last week or so of the
year.

Ericka Kammerer...

My elementary school kids get home at 3:30 Tue-Friday
and 12:30 on Monday (short day for teacher planning/meetings/
etc.). School gets out at 3:10 on full days and 12:20 on
half days. I wouldn't mind if they went earlier and got home
earlier, as it would make a bit less of a squeeze in the
evenings, but we're okay as long as homework doesn't get
out of line (which it does not infrequently). In some
ways, it's not such a bad deal. While the early release

Cathy Kearns...

Right now one of the perks of this school district is at the elementary
level they go 8:30 to 2:25, or 2:45 in the upper grades every day of the
school year, with only 4 minimum days all year, one of which is the last day
of school. The teacher in service days are before the students return to
school, Thanksgiving week, the day after MLK day, and President's week, so
families can take advantage and take longer family trips. The working
parents don't have to make alternate arrangements for weird schedules. The
parents seem to love this part of the program.

Monday wreaks havoc with some people's schedules, it does
provide a day where you can get a lot of those things
done in the afternoon. On the other hand, you've got a
lot of competition since everyone else is vying for
Monday afternoon appointments too ;-)
I think it might be nice if they had *optional*
longer days. So, those kids who wouldn't otherwise have
opportunities for things due to financial or transportation
restrictions could get involved in sports, homework help,
arts, and so forth, but those who were already booked into
things they preferred could do those instead. The kids
who have access to activities without the school's help
and are attached to their specific activities and teachers
could continue with those, but the kids who otherwise
wouldn't have access would have great opportunities.
One of our local high schools has an extended
day. It's a very prestigious magnet school that draws
kids from a huge area. The kids have long commutes.
So, they just added and extra period to the day for
extracurriculars. You don't *have* to stay for it
(though I think there are no "early" busses), but almost
everyone does. They couldn't really afford to run
regular *and* late busses for the far-flung students,
so this was their compromise. Many of the kids don't
get home until 5pm or so after the extra period and
commute home. Most of these kids have had to give up
a lot to go to this school anyway, though.
I think this is one of those big dilemmas. Longer
school days tend to be very helpful for disadvantaged
students, but can hinder opportunities for advantaged
students. You don't want to benefit one at the expense
of the other, but on the other hand, you don't want
a segregated add-on program at the end of the day either.
Hard to say what the best course of action is, and it's
probably very community-dependent.

Cathy Kearns...

In this community I wonder if the kids staying after would feel alienated.
But if they "required" everyone to stay I think they'd end up with tons of
exceptions. There was already one child in my daughter's class that was
excused 15 minutes early everyday to make ballet class at a distant academy.
I'm thinking if they expand the school day there would be more of these, for
the kids on club teams that have kids from outside the district and need to
start practice at 3:30 to beat the darkness in the winter. The equestrians,
golfers, and tennis players, not to mention other team sports like lacrosse,
have the same darkness problem in the winter. And I can't imagine any
program that would pick up all the activities these kids are doing at the
level they are doing them. For most they just don't have the facilities.

It sounds like there are a lot of elementary schools out there that don't
get out until after 3pm. Are these exceptions in their areas? And if so,

Ericka Kammerer...

No. Everything just has to move to accommodate the
schedules.

how do the kids get involved in the club or esoteric sports? I'm thinking

Ericka Kammerer...

Lots here. Lots and lots and lots ;-)

about how many kids this would affect, and in my daughter's class of about
85 kids there are maybe 20 club soccer players, 10 club lacrosse players, 5
tennis players, 5 equestrians, and maybe two kids involved in junior golf
programs. There is one elite gymnist, and the afore mentioned ballerina,
plus many other kids in things like competition dancing and music lessons
that are more evening type things, but then they need to use their
afternoons for homework. I'd guess overall, if this class is about average,
that there are only 20 to 30 kids that don't have outside activities
scheduled during the school year.

Ericka Kammerer...

Most kids here have activities. They just start late
enough to accommodate when kids get out of school. We have
dance classes at 4:45, piano at 4pm (either of which could be
later if we needed them to be), weekday soccer practices
were usually around 6pm-ish (the parent coaches had to get
home from work). Sometimes things happen before school.

Cathy Kearns...

So the community has put in lighted fields to accommodate the kids and
working parents. That might not be such a hard sell. Was this done through

Ericka Kammerer...

There are a limited number of lighted fields, yes.
Those are for later games and practices. Most of the practices
can be squeezed in early enough to get some sunlight during
the appropriate seasons (they aren't using the fields mid-winter).

the school district or the city? Who raised the money for the lights? (Or

Ericka Kammerer...

County and other localities.

Ericka Kammerer...

Same. It's never been an issue. The school schedule
is what it is, and everyone else does as necessary to
accommodate it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

do you live somewhere it doesn't get dark early in the winter...)

Best wishes,
Ericka

This is in the dreaming stages, so I don't see it really affecting my child,
as she is out of elementary as of tomorrow and out of the school district in
two years. But I'm wondering, is this something they could get parents
excited enough about to raise the $1.5 million a year it would take to
implement it.

(And high school scheduling around here is an entirely different model.)

Knit Chic...

I grew up in a farming community (but live in a large urban community now)
School started at 7:30 and ended at 2:15. I wish my daughter had this
schedule. Currently my kids have school from 9 to 3:15. I don't wish for
longer days, but do wish for an early start time. There is no way that we

Caledonia...

For our high school (grades 6-12), it's 7:50 to 2:09. Which is painful,
I've gathered from my babysitters -- coupled with all school indoor
activities (band, math club, chess club, drama) having their practice
sessions *before* school (so, my 11th grade friend is at school from
6:00 to 2:15), so that outdoor activities can happen after school
during daylight.

would get that here, most of the parents that I talk to at morning drop off
complain that they can't get their children up so that they are ready for
school by 9. By 9 a.m. my kids have usually been up for 3 hours.

If our school had the extra money to spend on anything I would vote to spend
it on community outreach. To have a program ran mostly by the kids for
people that are in need in some way. Teaching children how to give is
something that is severally lacking in our society. Our children and
communities would be much better off for it in many ways.

Caledonia...

Does your high school have a community service requirement for
graduation? (We have it for 10-11-12 grades; 80 hours of service). Just
a thought.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Clisby...

Report cards were mailed home at my daughter's elementary school, and
the last two weeks were used as school. (I'm not sure what you meant
by that - if they aren't used as school, what are they used as? Do they
just watch videos or something?)

I don't know how your school handles offerings outside the core academic
subjects. At my daughter's school (hours are 8 a.m. to 3 p.m., BTW),
all "special" classes are on Tuesday. Every child takes art, music,
Spanish, and P.E., plus 2 electives that vary by quarter. Some of the
electives heen cartooning, claymation, chorus, creative writing, a
course on marine animals, and first aid. If they wanted to offer drama
and could find someone to teach it, they could add it to the list of
electives.

I think this past year is the first where they put all the special
classes on one day. It has the advantage of giving the regular
classroom teachers almost a full day each week for planning; but of
course that means they don't get free periods on other days, so I'm sure
that has downsides too.

I don't have any interest at all in a longer school day, although I
would love it if the hours changed to 9-4. From preschool through the
first half of 3rd grade, start time was 9 a.m. for my daughter (she just
finished 4th). I still haven't adjusted to the earlier time.

Donna Metler...

That's either got to be a small school, or it's staggered by grade, because
when I was an elementary general music teacher, I had students almost every
period, every day of the week just to get everyone some music time. I taught
under a "one elective a day" model and under a "all electives on the same
day model", but it didn't change things for me-it just meant that on model A
I had students from every grade, every day, and under model B I'd have a day
which would be all Pre K and Kindergarten, one all first and 2nd, one all
3rd and 4th, one all 5th and 6th, and one all special ed, special groups
like band and choir, and anyone who didn't fit on the other schedule.

shinypenny...

Our grade school ended at 2:45. The girls then went into the
afterschool program right on the premises until 5:30 or 6:00. This
program was more than just babysitting: it was true enrichment. In our
school, about 80% of the kids attended, many 5 days a week, others
(those with nannies) at least two days a week.

It included a drama program, as well as art, sports, music, science,
etc. Every year the afterschool put on a play. It was a big production
and the majority of kids signed up to be in it. There was always two
musical numbers including all the kindergartners... so cute!!!

So I would say that a longer day for kids this age can work just fine.
You'd be surprised what kids can get used to. This program worked well
because it started with exercise period in the gym or outside to
re-energize the kids; included snacks; and kids had options to play
quietly, do homework, play on the playground *or* participate in the
enrichment activities.

If the school could be extended another 45 minutes, I'd personally vote
for more physical activity versus drama though. Kids that age need more
opportunities to run around and less sitting in a classroom. I would

dkhedmo...

I feel like I'm in the minority, but I'd rather my kids be home more.
I'm dreading ds1 going to first grade next year - full day at age 6-7
seems much too long to me!!! I'd rather he be home running around the
yard with his little brother, riding bikes or whatever with the kids in
the neighborhood, etc. Periodic/seasonal after school enrichment

Jeanne...

DD is in private school so take it for what it's worth. She's in school
from 9 am to 3:30 pm (elementary). I pick her up and we get home around
3:45 or 4:00. When she was in public school, school let out around 3:10
and she was home around 3:30 pm. So, there's really only an half-hour
difference and the change wasn't particularly noticeable.

We simply schedule dentist/doctor appointment when we can get them,
usually in the morning if possible and she goes to school late. Or I
take her out of school for an hour and then send her back.

I do wonder about the last few days of school. When DD was in public
school, they would take AWAY the books two weeks prior to the end of
school year. Then the last 5 days would be half days. It seemed like
the last two weeks of school were basically wasted.

Ericka Kammerer...

This is often a result of the needs of the secondary
schools. They have to get grades in before a certain date
so report cards go home the last day. The half days at the
end are usually related to the secondary school exam schedule
and the transportation needs resulting from that.

Jeanne...

This is a transportation (bus) issue rather than an academic issue. I
think TJ also starts later, the school day is the same length as other
county high schools. Don't the students first take their "normal" bus to
their home high school and *then* take the TJ bus to TJ? That's what

Ericka Kammerer...

Yeah, at least that's what those I know do.

makes the commute long. The school day starts at 8:30 am and ends at
3:00 pm, not terribly late but as you mentioned they add on the "8th"
period for clubs and sports extending the day by an hour. I suspect
this is so there are buses available to take the students home directly,
since they can't do the home school/normal bus thing in the afternoon.

Ericka Kammerer...

I believe they go 8:30-3:50, which is 7 hours 20 minutes.
Our local HS goes for 6 hours 50 minutes.

My niece goes to this high school and if she took the morning bus, the
commute would be unbearably long. Her home school starts an hour
earlier than TJ, but there's a carpool from the neighborhood because in
reality TJ is only a 10 minute drive away.

Ericka Kammerer...

From here, there's no good solution. The commute is
long without the bus, but even longer with it.

Jeanne...

I'm not sure the students or their parents would agree with this statement.

Ericka Kammerer...

The commute (by bus or carpool) has a significant
effect on kids here. For instance, everyone in our dance
school who's elected to go to TJ has had to give up dancing
there because the schedule was simply prohibitive. And
most of the parents have an eye opening experience when
it comes to college admissions, where coming from TJ puts
you at a disadvantage much of the time (many schools have
quotas on how many TJ students they'll take). That's not
to say it's not worth going. It's certainly an excellent
school, and if that's your passion then presumably it's
worth it or you wouldn't have decided to go. That doesn't
mean that choosing to go is without cost.

Jeanne...

How does it hinder opportunities for "advantaged" students?

Ericka Kammerer...

Because they're being required to spend more time
at school when they could be spending time in other activities
more tailored to their interests (e.g., private music lessons
rather than group music class). If my kids had to stay longer
at school, we'd have to trim their extracurricular activities,
many of which couldn't be replicated in the school. For the
disadvantaged child, however, they likely don't have the option
of the expensive extracurricular activities anyway, so the
extended school day can mean access to greater educational
support or exposure to activities they wouldn't otherwise
be able to participate in.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Jeanne...

Agree.

Jeanne

shinypenny...

Yeah, this could be a local thing. We're in an urban area, so it's not
the sort of neighborhood to be running around on bikes and such. Safer
to have the kids run around on the playground or in the gym.

Caledonia...

I'd vote for a longer day here in a rural area during the winter (the

Knit Chic...

The high school may ... we haven't made it that high on the educational
chain yet.
I'm looking for a volunteer activity for my 2nd grader for the summer, so
far no luck. She is thinking about doing something on her own.

time when it's dark at 4:15 p.m.). Our elementary offers a special
gym/games program during the late fall/winter (3 days/week, 45 mins),
which is wildly popular. There isn't much running around when there is
no light whatsoever.

activities through school would be nice, be not a permanent lengthening
of the school day. I feel they're away from home too much as it is!

Banty...

I would 'vote for' a longer school day if that means less homework. After all,
the given reason for homework is that it covers what can't be during school
hours. Then, there would be effectively the same amount of family
interaction/kid's own time.

I'd be pretty peeved if the extra 45 minutes was for P.E. or 'enrichment'.
Especially during my son's elementary school years, it was hard enough to do the
physical and enriching activities we wanted to do together. My family would not
be well served to have yet more hours of school-directed stuff.

also extend the lunch period - our lunch period was too short.

As for accomodating doctor's appointments, you learn to figure it out.
Our doctor's office has night-time hours once a week. Dentist we hit
first thing in the morning, or on weekends. Extracurriculars - we
didn't need them because the afterschool provided.