kids and their furniture?

Just wondering about how others feel about how your kids treat the
furniture you provide for them in their bedrooms and playrooms? Do you
feel the stuff is theirs to do with as they please, or do you feel it

-L....

No.

belongs to the family as a whole and expect things to be treated with a

toypup...

But if it's supposed to be used roughly, there may be no enjoyment at all in
not being able to use it that way. That's why I have a problem with kids

Ericka Kammerer...

? In the Case of the Tossed Cars, the child (both children,
actually) were having great fun playing with the cars gently. So,
where does this "supposed to be played with roughly" thing come in?

toypup...

Thread drift. Some things are made for rough use. If you cannot use them
roughly, it is no longer fun to play with them. If the kids only saw cars
the way I saw them and wanted to play roughly with them and the parent says
no, because that is rough use, I'd say what's the point of having them,
because there is no enjoyment.

Penny Gaines...

OTOH, to my mind (and my son's opinion) making matchbox type cars crash
is an unusual way of playing with them. That's not to say he never crashed
his small cars, but it was certainly *not* the way he played with them
most days.

As far as tossing toys in the boxes, my initial thought on it is that
Matchbox cars are normally used roughly, so tossing them in a box is not
rougher than typical play. If they are playing gently, I would assume
that's how it is ATM. It would not occur to me that's the only way they
play with it.

I can maybe imagine such a scenario if a parent gave a kid a bike
and then said he couldn't ride it outside for fear it would get
dirty, but aside from something like that, if the *OWNER* enjoys
using something a certain way, well, ipso facto there *IS*
enjoyment in using it the way the owner prefers, whether or not
the other person sees it that way.

Best wishes,
Ericka

being given toys they can't play with. What's the point? It's no fun. And
when they grow up, it may not even be sentimental, as they have no memories
of ever playing with it in childhood.

shinypenny...

Oh my... this just brought back a childhood memory for me!!!

For xmas my cousins received this doll that had a high chair. There
were these little tiles with pictures that you put into the high chair
tray, and the doll would say what was on the picture.

I was very curious what would happen if you turned the tiles over -
would the doll say "blank" or "nothing"? So I turned the tiles over,
and my cousins got all upset with me accusing me of trying to break
their new doll.

Nothing happened - the doll didn't break - but I remember that so
keenly. I was very hurt that they accused me of wanting to harm their
doll, and then refused to let me play with it after that. My mother
later told me not to fret, and that she was proud of me for having the
imagination and the brains to experiment.

In our house, we were encouraged to use toys in imaginative, unintended
ways. To experiment with our toys. Sometimes things would break when an
experiment went awry, but more often we had fun going "outside the
box."

For example, I remember long hours building castles for the chess
pieces to live in. We probably lost a lot of chess pieces along the
way, because at some point the set disappeared - must have been thrown
out because we lost too many of the pieces.

certain amount of care?

toypup...

I would not let my kids to destroy their furniture unless it was something
they bought with their own money, which they can't do right now. DS has
toys he buys with his own money, which I let him treat any which way he
pleases. I warn him if he loses or breaks one, I'm not buying him a new
one. The result is he treats the toys he buys with care, since it takes him
quite a while to save for anything.

Caledonia...

Regardless of ownership, I'd expecty it to be treated with care.

dejablues...

Our kids furniture has been rummage sale/tag sale stuff, it doesn't have any

toypup...

Maybe, but I was guessing this because Ericka said she gets by without
asking much by following the host's lead. Ericka, where are you?

Ericka Kammerer...

Busy day ;-) I do walk around barefoot in my house
a lot, but don't have any problem with people wearing shoes
in my house. People do ask me a lot if they should take off
their shoes. It doesn't bother me that they ask. I am
squeamish about asking because, as I said in another post,
to me it's like asking someone if they want me to chew with

bizby40...

But perhaps if *both* people are trying rather than either
expecting the other to take the whole burden, it's more
likely to work out better for all concerned.

Ericka Kammerer...

To me, it's not 50-50. It's 100-100. And I do
think that tends to work nicely in most cases.

Best wishes,
Ericka

dragonlady...

I agree, for the most part.

But I think I may be visiting my brother soon, and he bought himself a
Porsche (sp?). In his case, I MAY get pushy about asking!

Ericka Kammerer...

Hey, who loves ya', bro? ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

my mouth open at their dinner table ;-) However, I just
make my best judgement call. If it's a playdate, the host
has no shoes, but there aren't obvious signs of a household
with a no shoes rule, I'll ask or make my best guess based
on what else I know about the person (did they take their
shoes off when visiting my house? is there unstained white
carpeting? did I have to walk through some of the ubiquitous
VA red clay that stains *EVERYTHING* and won't come out?).
If it's, say, a cocktail party, I'm probably
going to keep my shoes on unless I see that everyone at
the party is shoeless.

Best wishes,
Ericka

annie...

I think it could also be that the parents know the kids will take off
their shoes eventually, so they might as well do it for them so that
they can keep track of them. I know we've had several times where
we've had visitors and it takes forever to say goodbye while the
parents are searching for shoes and socks. I think it could also be
that kids are more likely to climb on furniture that you wouldn't want
to have shoes on.

particular meaning to me, so I don't really care what they do to it. We had
sticker incidents with one bed and one dresser. Dresser still has
DragonballZ stickers on it.

DS16 has DH's great-great-grandfathers bed now, but we didn't give it to him
until he was about 12 I think.

-L....

Of course!

Ericka Kammerer...

Circe...

I like coffee (and the smell of it), though I also like tea. Before I was
pregnant the first time, I didn't object to flavored coffees. But when I was
pregnant with my oldest, I had a coworker who liked flavored coffee. Now, in
the first trimester, I can't drink coffee at all because of the smell, but I
will NEVER forget the smell of that flavored coffee--it absolutely made me

Stephanie...

I'm like that as well, I don't care for soda. I drink almost exclusively
water. When I get a hankering for something else, I add a little lemon to my

Circe...

Now, see, I'm definitely odd in this respect because I DO NOT LIKE lemon in
my ice water. I know many (most?) other people do, though. And it's not that
I don't like lemons--I used to win the lemon-sucking-without-making-a-face
contests when I was a kid--but I want my water (or my iced tea) unleaded,
thank you!

Banty...

I like a little lemon in water in hot weather, but I don't like anything in my
iced tea at all.

Ericka Kammerer...

I like lemon in my water, but not in my tea. What
drives my mom nuts is when she asks for lemon and gets a
lime instead! You'd be surprised how many restaurant
servers do that, as if they're interchangable. She *hates*
lime.

Best wishes,
Ericka

water. I know, outta control!

Rosalie B....

I really like root beer (I don't like regular beer) but most soda is
too salty for me. I really like iced tea though. Plain with nothing
in it although I can take lemon. One of the problems I have in
England is that there is nothing for me to drink No iced tea or much
of any iced drinks at all. And they call Sprite-type drinks (which I
don't care for) lemonade (which I do like). .

In the deep south, you will either get sweetened or unsweetened tea.
DH puts sweetener in his tea, but sweet tea was way to sweet for him.
So now he gets ice water with lemon and puts a little sweetener in it
instead of paying for iced tea. I've started doing that too. I don't
like paying $2.50 for a glass of iced tea - if it is a big glass it is
too much for me to drink, and it certainly doesn't cost that to make.

When I was a little girl, my mom had an actual tea party with the
faculty wives and gloves and hats and the whole thing. Milk or lemon.
And she gave us a little bit a very very weak tea to have our own tea
party. I didn't realize that it was milk OR lemon. I couldn't figure
out why my tea curdled. (I was about 5 or 6)

grandma Rosalie

want to retch. And to this day, I can't STAND the smell (to say nothing of
the taste) of flavored coffee.

So I understand what you're getting at, though why anyone would not like the
smell of regular coffee is simply beyond me. It's one of the nicest smells
on the planet, AFAIC.

Banty...

Absolutely. Complaining that coffee smell "smells up" the house is like saying
honeysuckle "smells up" the garden!

toto...

Ya know, if the sweet smell of honeysuckle is too strong in the
garden, I hate that too.

Ericka Kammerer...

Sooooo many people say that, even the ones who don't
actually like to drink coffee. I must just have weird genes
in that department. It all smells vile to me. Sunday afternoon
I was sitting on the couch thinking that I was smelling cat
pee, only to find out it was just DH and his coffee!

toto...

I don't like that smell at all. And as for the taste, I don't even

Circe...

Okay, well, that's that. I'm officially excluding you from my "those who
think (smell ) like me" club. Ostracism of you and Ericka shall proceed
apace!

Banty...

If we divide into coffee - hate coffee camps, does that mean we're not Stepmoos
anymore?

like coffee ice cream much less hot coffee. But as someone
else said, even with hot drinks I like, I rarely drink them. I
usually have tea when I am ill and hot chocolate after being out
in the snow to play if the place where I did that has hot chocolate
at their food stand. Mostly I drink water, soda, iced tea or other
cold drinks.

Oh, and Banty, I like cats .

Banty...

Cat person here, too.

Ericka Kammerer...

Shhhh...I was going to tell her I was a cat person
too, but I didn't want to overload her ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

dragonlady...

Personally, I think I was a pretty bad match for that team, anyway.

I wanna be on one that Starbucks would sponsor. (Well, Peet's would be
preferred -- just not sure everyone would get the reference..) The Coffe

Stephanie...

You say potato and I say potato (doesn't work so well in print, does it?)

Katchers?

Banty...

But you were going to referee the Stepford Wives - Entitlemoo game!

dragonlady...

that's right -- I'd forgotten.

But I want a club *I* can join, too.

I'm not quite ready for the Raging Grannies (a real singing group, by
the way -- a bunch of older women who are peace activists).

However, I might seriously consider joining the Flaming Feminzis . . .

Banty...

OK, well what if what if what if. If the Dad came in and saw my son and his
daughter doing demolition derby, it'd be different. Use your noggin - if
you're cleaning up Bud after Bud after Bud after bud, and you come across a
neatly ordered arrangement of English, German, and Austrailian beers, maybe a
neuron or two should fire in that noggin flashing "caution caution caution
caution".

Or are we now having a game between the Coffees and the Hate Coffees?

Ericka Kammerer...

Hey, I resent being labelled in a negative fashion!
I'm not anti-coffee; I'm pro-tea, dangit!

Anonymama...

Maybe we need a larger league. My team will be
pro-coffee-but-can't-drink-it-daily-because-of-frequent-UTI's. Anyone?
Anyone?

Circe...

And I'm pro-coffee and pro-tea! What team am *I* gonna play on? (Or does
this mean *I* have to referee now?)

Ericka Kammerer...

Qwitchyer whinin' and put on that black and
white striped jersey...

Circe...

As long as the stripes are vertical, I suppose...

Best wishes,
Ericka (with a nice cuppa Earl Grey Creme)

Chookie...

Ugh. No, Ericka, I am a tea fiend but I cannot cope with Earl Grey (or, in
fact, adulterated teas in general). I like high-grown plain old Camellia
sinensis. I also like lattes and Turkish-style coffee...

Ericka Kammerer...

I like some of both. I don't like a lot of flavored
teas, but I have a handful that I am extremely fond of. I'm
an absolute bergamot nut--something about it just makes me
feel like all is right with the world! I even found that
nearly all the perfumes I like have a note of bergamot in
them ;-) I like another tea that's a white tea with some
ginger and peppermint when my throat is feeling sore or
scratchy. This Earl Grey Creme also has some mallow
in it and it's almost like drinking dessert. But,
the rest of the time I have a nice assortment of
plain teas that I enjoy.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Best wishes,
Ericka

dragonlady...

Well, but who'd keep the Hate Coffees awake?

I think the ownership issue is a red herring. Regardless
of whether it's mine or theirs, they must still treat it with
care.

Sue...

I feel it belongs to the family and they should treat it with care. However,
we don't have much furniture for the kids or us because we haven't been able
to afford much for them yet. DD1 is the only one with a nice bed and
mattress and that's because my mom bought it when she needed to switch to a
bed. I am in the process of redoing everyone's rooms and will be purchasing
new bedroom furniture for the other two girls. I will expect them to take
care of it.

Do you feel differently about items that are specifically kid
sized/designed for kids than you do about regular furniture pieces that
are in the kid areas? For example, a kid sized table and chairs set: how

toypup...

Yes, crash, run off ramps, tables, etc. They detail them because they want
them to look like models of the cars they emulate. After you take them out
of the box, you crash them. That was how I saw it.

toypup...

I wonder if the dad Banty was talking about was actually tossing them and

Rosalie B....

grandma Rosalie

Banty...

There's still a spot open on the Moo rugby team!

the interpretation to us was "throw."

Even pick axes look nice when you buy them new, but people buy them and
immediately start banging them against the rock hard earth. Isn't that what
they are for? The kids' shoes look white when I buy them, but they run in
the playground and they get all scuffed and dirtied up, but isn't that what
they do with athletic shoes? Likewise with Matchbox cars, at least I
thought so.

would you feel about the child purposefully drawing a picture on the
table in marker that could not be removed easily? How would you feel

-L....

Wouldn't ever happen.

Sue...

on the bedding?

DD3 got a hold of some nail polish and painted her white dresser bright red.

toypup...

If my child had something he really wanted to care for, I'd tell him he
might want not want to take it out for the playdate. Matchbox cars are
normally played with in a somewhat rough manner (I would assume, DS doesn't
care for them). If the cars were to be played with gently, he should either
keep them locked up or make plenty sure his friend (and everyone else) knew
how carefully they should be handled before taking them out. I would assume
the dad didn't know they weren't to be played with like a normal toy. And
since you had a toybox, he thought naturally that's where they went. I
would have explained to the dad why your son was so upset so that your son
would be able to verbalize it next time.

an588...

Ah. That sounds very sensible to me.

People are not perfect.

toto...

Do any parents actually look at the condition of toy matchbox
cars after the kids were playing with them though.

While I like little cars, I don't really observe whether they are
in *pristine* condition or have paint chipped off them unless
the chips are pretty large. I agree with you mostly, Ericka,
but in this specific situation, I certainly might not have noticed
that these cars didn't have much wear and tear.

Banty...

Back to your question about maintaining the kettle, in that case I'd look when
it was done and empty the kettle so it evaporates. The stove won't be warm, but
at least the water wouldn't be siting there. (I know what you mean about the
kettle - I have a circa 1977 iron I still use because I care for it similarly.)

Banty...

Like that? It was years ago, but I liked it from the first time I heard it,

Cathy Kearns...

Heck, it's possible you are in that group anyway, as when you annoy people
they'd rather gloss over it than go into a detailed discussion. Most people
don't complain about the rude guest to the rude guest, unless they are
hoping the rude guest will see themselves in the story, which they seldom
do.

toypup...

Yes, I do help them fix their computer every now and then, but they are so
darned talented that they come over and help us with everything else. I
mean, they decorate for us, do odd jobs around the house (we aren't the
handyman/woman type), pretty much everything. We got the pleasure of taking
them on a cruise with us once. That was fun.

Ericka Kammerer...

Well, so it sounds like you *do* have a give and take
going between you. They do have a generation's worth of
experience up on you ;-) I have friends whose parents paid

toypup...

You sure have a way of making a person's day. Thanks.

I have friends whose parents paid

for their college education completely (so they would start
out with no loans to pay off or anything) on the condition
that they'd do the same for their children. I don't know
that I think it's necessary to completely fund kids' college
educations, but I think it is an example that sometimes the
way you pay someone back for things is to pay it forward.
Maybe it's even the case that your in-laws are paying it forward
from their parents doing the same for them when they were
younger.

toypup...

That's a thought. I told MIL once I was watching her closely, so that I can
do the same things for my own DDIL or DSIL. I really meant it.

Ericka Kammerer...

And I would imagine she took that as a really
nice compliment. I know I would in her shoes. I mean,
how many MILs get to hear their DILs say they want to
emulate them?!

Best wishes,
Ericka

Anyway, I think the main thing is that they're not
overstepping their bounds and invading your privacy or
doing things you don't want done and that they don't
prevent you from doing for them when you're willing and
able. I also try to keep in mind that timing is everything.
You may not be able to repay the fancy dinner, but a nice
pot of hot soup when you're too sick to get one yourself
can be nicer than the fanciest meal ever. It *really*
is the thought that counts. Lots of people say that,
but don't really *believe* it. The fact that you are
thinking of your in laws and they're thinking of you
is what's important, even though they have different
ways they're able to express it than you do. That doesn't
make either of your expressions of care more or less
meaningful or important. That really *is* good enough!
Betcha they tell their friends they're lucky to have
you as a DIL too. If you both feel lucky to have each
other, there can't be too much wrong with it, eh? ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

bizby40...

But see, *I* consider the Yahtzee tablet as a
"reducitio ad absurdum." The tablet is clearly meant
to be written on as part of the game. If you have
permission to play the game at all, it would be
absurd not to be allowed to write on the tablet
that is there expressly for that purpose.

Ericka Kammerer...

Nevertheless, I have met absolutely NO ONE,
EVER who didn't want me to use their toilet paper
in their bathroom, but I have met several people
who didn't use the score pads in the game (and one
has even chimed in here). That suggests to me that
people who don't use score pads are quite a bit more
common than people who just put out toilet paper
for show!

bizby40...

If I picked up the pad and the first two columns
were filled in, I might ask if they wanted me to
use up that sheet or start a new one (as they might
be in the middle of a tournament). But if someone
really expected you not to use the pads included
in the game for the express purpose of scoring
that game, I really think it's up to them to tell you
that -- particularly for a game like Yahtzee which
is difficult to score on a blank sheet of paper.

Ericka Kammerer...

Because *you* define that position as
unreasonable enough that no reasonable person
could possibly anticipate it. But how many other
things do you think are unreasonable that others
think of as perfectly normal? And how many things

toypup...

But that's the thing. A couch used for display purposes only is perfectly
reasonable. You've defined it as unreasonable because couches are for
sitting and therefore, you wouldn't ask to sit on it. Why is it only
unreasonable when you define it as unreasonable? To a person who is using
it for display, it is absolutely reasonable that some furniture is for
display and some furniture is for use. When you stay at someone's house, do
you ask if you can sit on every chair before you sit on it? You've already
said no, **because *you* define that as unreasonable enough that no
reasonable person could possibly anticipate it.**

Ericka Kammerer...

I have said repeatedly that one can't get out
of the conundrum of having to set *some* level for
reasonability. However, I obviously think it should
be set substantially higher than many here. I think
it should accommodate a generous margin for different
behavior. Any standard that admits throwing someone
else's painted metal toys across the room is *CLEARLY*
not sufficiently high in my book.
You can't avoid having to set some limits on
reasonability. I have already said that what I consider
appropriate is that you should not do things that would
possibly affect the state or the utility of the item
without an indication from the owner that it's okay.
That simply is not hard to do in my experience, nor
does it require anyone to be unreasonably annoying
to accomplish it. It saves you from damaging a child's
cars without forcing you to ask whether it's okay to
drink from the glass of water the host has just
handed to you. As far as I'm concerned, if you can
see examples of perfectly ordinary folk who have a
different standard about something, it is just stubbornness
to say that well, expecting someone not to throw your
cars is unreasonable, so I'm not going to adopt an
internal rule that prevents throwing cars in the
future. I'm just going to justify that behavior and

toypup...

But see, I have said that. I now know that some people do not throw
Matchbox cars. It is a revelation to me and I will be more careful now.
But I'm sure there are many situations that are very similar to the Matchbox
car problem that I wouldn't know about. If I did, then of course, I'd be
more careful. However, I agree with the other poster who said they are
probably not as good as reading cues as you. I think you are probably very
good at social skills IRL and I could learn a thing or two. I would
probably be more likely to set the bar lower, simply because it may seem to
me to be beyond reason to set it any higher.

Ericka Kammerer...

I just think it is pretty easy to generalize
beyond the specific case, rather than trying to learn
specific behaviors for each little thing. Part of
what I hear in this conversation is that nearly *all*
of us have *some* sort of peccadillo that probably
isn't easily predicted by others. So, since I'm
sometimes a guest and sometimes a host, I have to
look at this from two different perspectives:

1) When I'm the guest, I should probably assume
that every home has some house custom that
I'd never guess. Therefore, I should be
alert and looking for ways to minimize finding
out what it is the hard way.

2) When I'm the host, I can't expect that my guests
will intuit everything, so while I should refrain
from lecturing them and while I should attempt to
be understanding of differences, I can also make
their lives easier by leaving some clues about
what is appropriate, or maybe even speaking
direction if doing so wouldn't be insulting.

If everyone did that, we'd have far fewer incidents.
I'm always a fan of taking responsibility for whatever
I can do myself in my current role, rather than
trying to foist responsibility off on the other
person.

Best wishes,
Ericka

continue it. I think the appropriate reaction is
to say, "Wow, I didn't think of that before, but now
that I realize that's a possibility I guess I should
make sure that not only do I not throw someone else's
Matchbox cars, but I also prevent similar gaffes from
happening in the future."
Folks can complain all they want about it
being too hard to open themselves up to the possibility
that things they consider normal might be considered
unacceptable by others, but my position is that when
in someone else's home, one has an obligation to
tread lightly. I also believe that as an adult,
it is not the job of other people to educate me.
I ought to be able to avoid the vast majority of
offenses on my own. My parents had the job of
rearing me, and once they were done, it's my job
to ensure the propriety of my own behavior, not
the job of everyone whose home I visit and who
might do things differently than I do. And frankly,
it just isn't that hard, so to me it seems like
laziness to argue that it isn't worth the effort
or to overhype what it would take to do it such
that it seems unreasonable when, in practice, it
isn't.

Best wishes,
Ericka

do you think of as expected that others define
as unreasonable, and are therefore expecting you
to clue them in? Isn't it better to have a system
with less reliance on everyone having a shared
notion of what's normal and what's not? Isn't it
much more plausible to expect success out of a
system that places more of a burden on the
person who's about to take action than on a
person who is in a purely defensive position and
can only attempt to predict what another person
might do in order to preemptively issue a warning?
If I'm about to throw something, I know it.
Someone else may not have any clue that I would
throw something. Not only that, but shouldn't
*I* take responsibility for my *own* actions,
and ensuring their suitability to the absolute
best of my ability?

Best wishes,
Ericka

Best wishes,
Ericka

Stephanie...

LOL. I was actually with her up until the Yahtzee score pad. I mean,
assuming that they were sitting down to play.

Ericka Kammerer...

Actually, I have known a number of kids who for
some odd reason have a hangup about using up the
consumables in a game like that, so they keep the
score pad for "special occasions" and just write things
on a piece of paper the rest of the time. It's not a
perspective I really "get," but it's certainly out there
and I don't really care to deal with the person who
gets in a fuss because one of the precious score papers
were used! I'll ask, thank you very much, unless someone
hands me the scorepad with the intention that I should
use it ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

eliz_reid...

I've been following this conversation but not posting, but I do have to
say one thing. If I had someone who was following Ericka's advice to
the letter (asking about using *anything* before using it) I wouldn't
find being with them a nice relaxing social situation, I'd find it very
off-putting. FWIW.

I'm picturing the conversation going like this...

Me: "Oh, hi, c'mon in!"
Other person: "Hi, thanks! Should I take my shoes off or leave them
on?"
Me: "Oh, either way, whatever suits you."
OP: "I'm going to take them off. May I rest my hand on this chair next
to the door for balance?"
Me: "Sure. Then come on in, sit down! You can hang your coat up in
the closet right there."
OP: "Can I use this hanger?"
Me: "Of course."
OP: "May I sit in this chair?"
Me: "Uh, sure."
OP: "Do I need to sit straight up or can I lean back?"
Me: "Really, either way is fine. Can I get you something to drink?"

OP: "Is it okay to use this coaster to put my drink on?..."

By this point in my imaginary conversation, my imaginary self is having
to restrain the urge to say, "YES, that's why we have coasters on the
table!" I realize my imaginary visitor is trying to be considerate of,
say, the possibility that this particular chair is a collectable or
that this particular table coaster is part of a coaster collection, but
I'd get very impatient. I think that most people would find it weird

Ericka Kammerer...

Yes. I think if someone loaned you their sweatpants
it is your responsibility to return them in the same condition
you received them, unless you have clarified with the lender
that something else is acceptable. You should not engage in
anything which would change the condition of the sweatpants
without knowing for sure that the lender is okay with that.

Best wishes,
Ericka

to be in a social situation where someone wanted to verbally verify
that everything he/she was doing was okay. This just isn't generally
how these things are handled in my experience - people do make
assumptions that, say, coasters on the table are to be used for drinks
on the table.

Ericka Kammerer...

As I've said several other places, you rarely
have to ask. The vast majority of the time it is obvious
by following the host's lead. If the host is wearing
shoes and there isn't a pile of shoes (or at least a
place to put shoes) near the door, it's a pretty safe
bet that shoes are okay. I would by force of habit
not usually touch other people's walls (I get plenty
tired of cleaning handprints off my walls to be doing
that to someone else). The invitation to hang up one's
coat in the closet is a clear invitation to use the
hanging devices in the closet. Hosts usually make
it quite clear where one is to sit (usually be
moving toward the appropriate area or motioning
or sitting down nearby), and the host typically
models expected sitting behavior as well (obviously,
sitting vs. leaning is not really an issue, but I
would *never* put my feet up on someone else's
furniture without a clear indication that that
was okay with them, even though I routinely do
so in my own home). And so forth. I rarely have
to ask any questions whatsoever, and yet, apparently
suprisingly to some, people tend to indicate quite
clearly what their expectations are without having
to lecture me on the proper care and handling of
their items or reading me a long list of house rules
upon my entry, 'cause, y'know, I just might be the
sort who tracks mud in the house, puts smudges on
the wall, drops coats on the floor, leaves shoeprints
on the furniture, and puts wet glasses on the wood
table. Hey, some folks do that, so I suppose they
should be sure to put me on notice so that I don't
accidentally ruin some of their stuff that they're
clearly too uptight about.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Barbara...

Stephanie...

Honestly, I go with D, none of the above. I don't think a host *should* ask
someone to remove their clothing.

dragonlady...

LOL! This has occassionally been an issue for me, when I've had to say,
"I'm wearing orthotics right now, and if I take my shoes off, and have
to do any walking beyond about 2 steps, I'll end up in excruciating pain

Chookie...

Let's say it would be a much wilder party than the kind I normally attend!

Ericka Kammerer...

Miss Manners agrees with you, and I do think it is a
hardship to some guests to be asked to remove their shoes.

Circe...

It may be a hardship to the host, as well, should the guest happen to have a
bad case of foot odor !

Rosalie B....

I go barefoot much of the time even outdoors. I always wonder, when
guests come to the door, if I should put on shoes. My feet are not
particularly pretty. Most of the time I just figure that they don't
have to look.

In my children's homes, I take off my shoes in the way of making
myself at home. I'd be happy to take off my shoes at anyone's house
if I didn't feel that I was undressing more than was polite.

Ericka Kammerer...

I think in your own home you can go barefoot if you
want to, though I will put on shoes for anything that's not
casual (party, visitor who's not a good friend, that sort of
thing).
I do think there are people who are a bit horrified
at bare feet. If I think someone might have delicate
sensibilities in that direction, I'll probably keep my
shoes on in their home.

Best wishes,
Ericka

grandma Rosalie

Best wishes,
Ericka

So, if there WAS a somewhat different rule in the home, you WOULD
expect someone to inform you? *Have a seat; ummm, you're wearing
jeans. The color might rub off on our light-colored couch, so please
sit somewhere else* *That's Uncle Joe's special chair; please don't
use it* *Help yourself to a beverage, but don't use those glasses on
the counter; they're decorative. Use a paper cup instead.* *Please
don't eat from the tray of cookies on the table in front of you;
they're for dessert* *The downstairs bathroom is for boys only; you
should go upstairs instead* These are all things that are not
intuitive.

Well, that's all I'm saying. If my son plays Clue at a friend's home,
I really don't think its necessary for him to ask whether its OK to use
the Clue pad in the game; if the host doesn't want him to, the host
should say *by the way, we use a notepad instead; here's one for you*
If his friend says *grab a ball and let's practice some layups,* I
don't think he needs to ask which basketball laying on the ground is OK
to use; if one is special, the kid should mention it. When a kid pulls
out his cars and says *let's play car* his playmate gets to assume that
he gets to do all of the ordinary things that one does with toy cars.
If a kid has special rules, then he should mention them. AND the
playmate should, of course, comply. If Johnny says *we don't crash
cars* then we don't crash them. And none of that means that its
appropriate for him to tear up the entire Clue pad and flush Professor
Plum down the toilet; roll the basketball in motor oil before drop
kicking it into a snake-infested jungle; or to mangle the toy cars.
Just like you get to sit on the couch or chair you were led to, or eat
the cookies set out on the table in front of you unless someone tells
you otherwise, the child gets to assume that ordinary play is
appropriate unless told otherwise.

eliz_reid...

I haven't personally said anything about anyone being too uptight about
any of their own possessions, so I think you may be reading into my
post a little bit.

What I would find weird would someone being that uptight about *my*
possessions, since, in my own house, I'm way towards the casual end of
the spectrum. I would always honor and respect any house rules I was
aware of when visiting, nor insist that anyone allow me to break their
stuff. I would hope, though, that if I were to visit someone who had
standards that differed significantly from the range of behaviors
that's considered the norm that they'd give me some warning that that
was the case,

toypup...

But if you were not close to the mainstream, chances are, you know it.
Other people don't know it, so you tell them.

Ericka Kammerer...

Already in this thread alone we have some
pretty serious disagreement as to what constitutes
"normal" with something as small (in the grand scheme
of things) as playing with Matchbox cars. What makes
you think that the same isn't true of nearly every
other issue you could come up with?

Best wishes,
Ericka

We have had examples in this thread of 'special' chairs, 'special'
bottles, walls that can't be touched, and so on, and suggestions that,
when unsure, the best course of action is to ask. My point is that at
the level of care you're arguing for, I'd personally feel like I'd need
to ask about nearly everything and that might be considered a little
creepy.

Ericka Kammerer...

That could be. But then I'd ask, if you don't read
cues well, is it better to ask or to assume? I mean, at that
point haven't you already admitted to a deficit in a particular
area that might get you into trouble? If I know I'm not likely

Chookie...

Um, yeah. Except that while I can try, I don't know what I don't know. You
know? :-) Therefore, I *would* have to ask about every little thing if I
followed the suggested protocol. And even then, according to Murphy's Law,
there would be something I didn't ask about... I incline to the view that
exceptions should be announced, or the toys kept out of reach. Your 4yo might
know that these cars should be played with "carefully", but mine might not
grasp that this means no crashing, no banging, etc -- or might not remember.
He wouldn't bash them with a hammer, though.

to clue in when someone wants me to get going, maybe I need
to have a rule for myself that I don't stay longer than
X minutes without making some noises about leaving so
that my hosts have an opportunity to take me up on the
offer before they have to ask me to leave.

Chookie...

Um. This relative doesn't KNOW it's a problem (after 70+ years on the
planet!). I imagine that deep down, she suspects there is something wrong,
but has no idea what it is. During my Russian Studies days, one of my
classmates had the most appalling accent you can imagine, to the point that
her Russian was almost unintelligible. She told another friend that she
*knew* it didn't sound *quite* right, but she didn't know what was wrong or
how to fix it. (I do, now -- she made all Russian sounds as if they were the
similar sounds in Broad Australian English! I do wonder if she was tone-deaf
as well. Anyway, my rello is tone-deaf to conversational cues, which are far
less varied than care of toys -- the Moral is left to the Reader to draw.)

Best wishes,
Ericka

too. I remember who I first heard it from, even.

Ericka Kammerer...

I might not have either...but I would
have defaulted to more careful handling of the cars.

dragonlady...

This part of the conversation is reminding me of one frustrating
experience with three 3yo-s playing in a kiddie pool. We'd just gotten
it out, and I had run in to use the bathroom leaving the other mother to
supervise. I heard lots of commotion and unhappiness (her daughter),
and came out to see my kids dumping water over her daughter, and the
mother saying to MY kids, "you need to treat people the way you want to

Welches...

I don't mind the smell of coffe unless I'm pregnant-in which case I can
detect it through two closed doors, So yes, go ahead and have a coffee, but
you'll find me being sick in the bathroom, thanks :-D
Debbie

be treated" -- not realizing that my kids LOVED having water dumped over

Welches...

And #1 must have got 10+ driving licences over the course of last year. (for
mini driver). I told her she needed to be disqualified before she could go
on again when the queue got too long in the summer. :-P
Debbie

their heads. (And, at 3, my kids didn't seem to be registering that her
daughter was unhappy about what they were doing; they knew she was
unhappy, but she wasn't articulating why, and they weren't figuring it
out. The other mother wasn't telling them to stop -- though I think she
thought she was.)

Needless to say, I stopped my kids, and explained that people like
different things -- and just because they liked having water dumped over
their heads didn't mean other people did. (And the other mother said,
"I guess I needed to be clearer about what I wanted them to do.")

dragonlady...

I don't think I've made a lot of mistakes, either. A few, to be sure.
The friend I mentioned who was upset that I put her glasses in the
dishwasher, for example: I'd paid enough attention to notice that she
was one of those people who wash the dishes before they go into the

Ericka Kammerer...

I agree as well. In the case of my friend, she was in
a pickle *and* we are very close friends (the sort who can ask
those sorts of things of each other). Even so, she was embarrassed
to ask, and that's why she took extra pains to return the car
in even better condition that I gave it to her. And you can bet
that I would happily loan her my car any other time she needed
it (I jokingly asked her if she'd like to borrow my car once a
month or so, since I always seem to have trouble finding time
to get it washed ;-) ).
In general, though, there are things you just don't
ask for unless the need is compelling and you're asking family

enigma...

since you are good at this sort of thing... ;)
i have a friend that has borrowed quite a bit of money from me
(2 used cars & 3 computers worth). i'm not terribly concerned
about payback, as i do think he will eventually. he's just had
a run of bad luck.
anyway, i *know* he's embarrassed about it & he's now
avoiding me. how can i get him to understand that i rally am
not horribly upset with him & it's his own issues that is
causing a rift in our friendship? he's not the only one i've
lent money to & i always do get it back (in small amounts or
in help around the farm). it's not that big a deal to lose
friendship over. if it was, i wouldn't have lent him money to
start with.

Ericka Kammerer...

Wow, tricky issue. I don't think there's any
perfect generic solution, as what works for one person
might not work for another. I'd be tempted to sit him
down and say, "I know you don't feel good about not having
paid me back yet, but I want you to know that I am not
in the least bothered about this. It was a privilege
to help you out when you needed it, and I'd still count
you a friend if you weren't ever able to pay it back.
I am doing fine financially and I'm not suffering any
hardships as a result. I'd have been happy to give you
the money if you hadn't made it clear you felt better
paying it back. So, please, don't feel bad about this.
I trust that you'll pay this back someday in one form or
another, and I'd be really sad if you felt so embarrassed
by this that you deprived us of your company in the
meantime."

Best wishes,
Ericka

dragonlady...

I've never had that much money to loan anyone, but when I *have* loaned
money to people (except my kids) I've handled it by refusing to "loan"
them the money in the first place. That is, I tell them I am *giving*
them the money, and if they are ever able to give it back, I'll happily
accept it -- but that their friendship means a great deal to me, and if
they never fine themselves in a position where they can give it back,
it's OK, because it's a gift, not a loan.

So far, I've always gotten it back, except for an amount to one of my
brothers. And I honestly don't even remember how much it was.

lee

Welches...

Would he take it the right way if you asked him to do a few jobs for it? Or
wouldn't you want that?
Debbie

or good-as-family.

Best wishes,
Ericka

dishwasher, so I WAS doing that. I just hadn't noticed that she didn't
put the clear glasses in the dishwasher. (Her dishwasher will probably
last longer than mine, and her every day glasses will look good longer

Ericka Kammerer...

*Exactly*. Obviously, there is a maturation process
and three year olds aren't going to be as sensitive and
sophisticated about this sort of thing as older kids and
adults can be, but I think we all benefit from trying not
to assume so much about what others think/value/prefer.
There are a whole lot of things in this world that would
go more smoothly if people did more of that. There are
more than Matchbox cars at stake! ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

Stephanie...

Wait. Powder room? What's that? (Just kidding.)

It's a tradeoff. I probably wouldn't handle someone
else's stuff with any less care than I would if I
were, say, looking the item over in a store without
having purchased it. I sure as heck don't want to
be the person to break or mar something. If I
want to exercise less caution with something, then
I have to ask myself if I can get away with that,
and then I'd be looking for clues--like looking at
the condition of the cars.
It just doesn't seem hard to me to default
to very cautious handling and look for clues when
and if I'm wondering if I can be less cautious.
I just can't even really imagine doing otherwise.
I mean, sure, I'm not perfect and I might screw
up sometimes, but if I did I'd own that as a
mistake rather than defending it as okay because
most people would side with me in how they
treated object X. Whether most people share my
way of treating object X is irrelevant. What is
important is that my treatment of object X fell
short of the *owner's* expectations. That, in and
of itself, makes it a problem. If the owner has
unreasonable expectations, that makes it harder
for me to predict things, but oh well. Sometimes
life is hard.

toypup...

Still, the question is what is unreasonable. What is quite reasonable for
you may be unreasonable for someone else.

Ericka Kammerer...

Exactly. So, you set the bar very high so as to
exclude as many problems as possible.

toypup...

But that can lead to becoming a very irritating guest, as others have
pointed out.

Ericka Kammerer...

I have never once found that to be the case in
practice, and yet that's how I live my life. Furthermore,
I have generally found that the houseguests who are
observant and ask questions when they're not sure are
the *more* pleasant houseguests to be around. So, I
don't really see any evidence to support the contention
that it leads to irritating guests.

Cathy Kearns...

I thought the house guests who kept asking "Is this washable?", "Does this
go in the dishwasher?" "Where do you want this? is it leftovers?" "Is this
the right knife?" "Is this cut the right size?" until you finally shooed
them out of the kitchen to take care of everything yourself were just folks
that wanted the satisfaction of thinking they tried to help, but didn't
really want to help. When I tell some one to help themselves to coffee it
was to get me out of getting them coffee, because I was doing something
else. If I need to okay their mug, and their sugar bowl, and their carton
of milk, well, I'd just as soon tell them to wait and I'll get it for them
myself. So yes, I find those types of guests irritating. But only once.
:-) Again, this is where your milage may vary. I'm happy to hear those
type of guests have other welcoming hosts.

toypup...

Yes, I tell my houseguests to treat my home like their own. I don't mean
trash it, but be comfortable and get what they need when they need it. I
haven't had any problems. I like it better when they go digging through the
fridge for a snack at midnight or get their own coffee in the morning before
I awake. Never had any problems, but I don't have many things I put in the
fine china category. If it gets chipped, it's not ruined. We'll still use
it.

I would be fully annoyed if a houseguest kept asking me if they could use
every little thing. If it looks like a can opener and you need it, use it.
If it's a chair and you want to sit, sit on it. Use the towels, the
napkins, the potholder, whatever. Really, I don't mind. If it's there,
it's meant to be used. If it wasn't meant to be used the way it was
intended or the way most people use it, I'd let you know.

Circe...

This just made me think of the houseguests who regularly ask if they can use
the bathroom. My response (always in a tone that indicates I'm clearly
joking) is, "Oh no, just go out behind the fence." I'm sure that what they
are really asking is "Where's the bathroom?", but I still find, "May I use
the bathroom?" an extraordinarily amusing question. Like I'd prefer they
DIDN'T?

dragonlady...

LOL -- I'll have to try the "no, just go out by the fence" one of these
days.

My daughter has a friend who is a wonderful piano player. We have a
decent piano (better than the one she owns), and she loves to play ours.
She ALWAYS asks permission, which I find kind of sweet. I'm glad she
asks if the TV or stereo are on -- sometimes I've asked her to wait for
something I'm really paying attention to to end. But when the house is
silent, I'm tempted to say, "No! For heaven's sake keep those talented
fingers off the piano -- you're wearing it out!" (Which would
undoubtedly make her laugh, so I may.)

Ericka Kammerer...

Well, and not just "Where's the bathroom?" but also,
"Which bathroom do you prefer us to use?" and "Here's your
opportunity to tell me about any plumbing quirks before I
find out the hard way" and such. But you're right--taken
literally it is rather amusing.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty...

dragonlady...

There isn't. There is resistance to the idea that "taking care" means
treating all toys the way you'd expect a porcelain doll to be treated.

Banty...

So, again, the false dichotomy - if you can't throw something across the room,
it must be expected that it's treated like a porcelain doll.

As I said, I'd like to think that I'd have noticed that your son took
special care with his matchbox cars -- but if the kids were playing in
his room out of my sight, I might not have noticed. And, in an attempt
to get my kids to hurry and help clean, I might WELL have started
tossing toys into the toybox. Again, I like to think that, when your
son objected, I'd have stopped immediately.

Banty...

OK, you'd throw painted metal cars against each other.

But I'd ALSO like to think that, when I asked what was wrong, you'd have
told me, instead of just shunting me out the door as quickly as
possible, leaving me to conclude that perhaps your son was just angry
that the playdate was over. I think I'm generally an approachable
person. (Actually, I'd have asked your son -- but, at 5, he might not
have been able to articulate it very well.) An explanation would have
allowed me to apologize for my behavior immediately, admire the
collection, and, probably, buy some a new vintage car to add to his
collection the next time I came over to make up for my error.

Banty...

What is it with this need for explanations?? Toys are being smashed, five year
old owner is crying. Do you expect to explain to folks to take their foot off
your foot?

I don't expect or want apologies or vintage cars. Only that stuff not be
wrecked and folks listen to people, even kids.

I think I am more disturbed by your decision to NOT offer an explanation
to the father than anything. He screwed up -- why not tell him how?
Obviously, your approach worked, and you knew him, so it was OK. But if
it had been me (and as I say, it could well have been) I'd have
preferred to know.

Banty...

I really do think he figured it out. You know, people can feel insulted by
explanations of the obvious, as if they don't have a brain in their head.

I really do think what you're really after is for me to say "oh you're RIGHT
Marie - people are DIFFERENT about this WE'RE the PECULIAR ones so that's why an
explanation was needed". Not as regards the acctual situation. This Dad is a
fine person - he got it, he makes cause-effect connections, he links a sudden
shift from rolling on floor to flying through air crashing with crying and
objections. My son said "DON'T DO THAT". I mean, what ELSE needed to be said??
"Don't do that." Don't do what - breathe? Kneel on the floor? Wear
Khaki-colored Dockers? What ELSE do you think my son told to the Dad NOT TO
DO???

I hope the little girl in question explained what was going on to her
Dad.

an588...

I agree too, but my question is different. Obviously,
I can find out whether something is in a handle-carefully
category by asking about how it should be handled.
My question is: how can I realize when there's
something like that that needs to be asked about?

Or to put it another way: I don't think it's reasonable
to expect all people at all times to make this
realization when they should.

Sitting on a couch changes its state. Walking on
the floor changes its state. I think people would
think it was silly to ask about these things.

I have, at times, assumed that metal is very
durable and that it doesn't change when thrown.
I now realize that that isn't true, especially
when one considers the paint. However, some
people might well believe that throwing a metal
car into a toybox doesn't change the car in
any detectable way. They would be wrong about that;
but lots of people believe lots of things that
aren't true.

Nan...

dragonlady...

Amen!

And that's what Miss Manners says, too -- guest towels are there to dry
your hands on.

I DO know people who put out decorative towels and stuff that aren't
supposed to be acutally USED -- they're expensive and pretty -- so if

Ericka Kammerer...

I guess what I don't understand is how using them
creates a problem. Occasionally I will see a guest towel
that one clearly couldn't launder without it falling
apart. I think those are *really* silly. But for the
most part, even "expensive and pretty" guest towels
wash up quite nicely. I have a number that are very
old and/or have beautiful embroidery on them and they
just go right into the washer and dryer and come out
as good as new. Heck, the more expensive linen guest
towels wear like iron. I wouldn't wipe muddy hands
all over a guest towel, and I do try to avoid using
the ones that look like they wouldn't survive a
washing, but I don't really get the idea of Guest
Towels that Must Not Be Used.

shinypenny...

I can't recall where I read it, but there was a story (supposedly true)
about a woman who'd glued her guest towels on to the towel bar, because
they kept falling off. They were definetly NOT supposed to be used!
LOL!

Ericka Kammerer...

Oh, that's funny. I do agree that those little
tiny towels are forever falling off. That's why I like
the old, big linen ones. Plus, they are nicer for
drying your hands. I do, however, wish I could
convince the kids that if you're getting dirt on the
hand towels, it means that you haven't thoroughly
washed and rinsed your hands!

Best wishes,
Ericka

Best wishes,
Ericka

there are TWO towels, and one is prettier, I use the less pretty one.

Anonymama...

By any chance do these people also have little soaps shaped like
seashells?

Penny Gaines...

Well, they did until dragonlady and toypup turned up :-) .

dragonlady...

Yup.

I used to buy little guest soaps, but I stopped because people wouldn't
use them. I'd even go in and run a couple of them under water and wash
my hands with them, so they'd be obviously used -- and guests would
STILL not use them. (I also hang the guest towel a bit askew to make it
obvious that it's been used.)

So to heck with cute little decorative soaps.

Nan...

Okay, I'll admit that one of my pet peeves is finding only decorative
soaps (usually with some dust on them so it's clear they're not to be
used) and no other soap to wash with.

Chookie...

Mine too... I mean, how *decorative* is a little shell soap with dust on,

toypup...

Don't put them away yet, I'm not done? He could have thought your child
didn't want the playdate to end yet. Like other's have said, it may not
have been cleat to him, though it was clear to you. I'm sure he wasn't
trying to make him upset, or else he wouldn't have turned around and ask him
about it.

anyway?

But if the decorative towel is the only one there, I'm not drying my
hands on my skirt, on the off chance that they weren't supposed to be
actually USED.

(I just think non-utilitarian, decorative-only towels are beyond silly.)

Nan...

LOL. A friend of mine used to have pretty towels and soaps in her
bathroom. But she displayed them in a way that made it clear that
they were purely decorative, and other soap and towels were available.
I don't decorate in the bathroom since it just makes things for me to
clean around.

I'm in the Midwest, and I'd love to have a mudroom!

an588...

Ooh! Good point.

Maybe cheap second-hand furniture needs to be
treated with lots of care, to prevent it from falling
apart, for example.

The problem is - how could we have anticipated that they'd be thrown across the
room?? (That's not playing like a normal toy IMO.) Perhaps some kids like to
throw their cars around, that's not how my son's way of playing, and that's not
how he and the girl were playing. And the toy box was full of the larger, bulky
toys (a large toy box isn't much good for zillions of little cars), I don't
think it's so obvious that some toy box across the room would be where these go,
let alone that they be thrown across the room to it (that was the Dad's idea of
how to make cleanup fun...)

The thing is - why would it be assumed that kids would play roughly with
something like that? Which things could we know that *other* kids would play

an588...

No need to make that assumption. If you have something you
care about, you can protect it by not making the assumption
that someone will play gently with it even if not specifically
asked to.

roughly with? *Can* a kid have treasured things like those Easter eggs on
display? Or is everything of interest and value to be hidden away. That's
nuts. Why is the onus on the *nondestructive* use to have to be proactively
protective, rather than on the rough usage be assumed?

It's it better to teach that things be treated well, and the category of things
that can be treated very roughly is few, and never what is others', unless
that's what the others are doing? I think so. It makes for a kid who will
engage decently with the rest of the world as he grows up.

I was extremely upset, but at the same time, the dresser wasn't that nice.
It can be sanded and redone and that's what I plan to do. My kids are pretty
rough on our furniture and stuff so we really don't have anything nice and I

toypup...

I think it must have been obvious to the dad that the toys belonged in the
toybox. It didn't sound like he was being malicious and wanted to destroy
your son's toys.

toypup...

Maybe you didn't assume they did because yours doesn't play like that. My
DS doesn't play with cars, but when I think of Matchbox cars, I think of

toypup...

I think it is you who does not see middle ground. 1)Hiding does not equal
hoard. If your child puts his stuff away for a brief playdate, he is not
hoarding it, just keeping it away from a possibly destructive child. He may
share it with another child who is not destructive and he may have it out
all the time when that destructive playdate is not there. 2)Smash does not
equal trash. The cars that get smashed get played with for many years and
many are kept through to adulthood.

burying them in the sand, crashing them together, etc. That is my

toypup...

That's too funny. IMO, you treat things with kid gloves. That's not a bad
thing. But you think anyone who doesn't treat their things with kid gloves
are destroying or "wrecking" their things, and you accuse Barbara of false
dichotomy?

expectation of normal use for those cars. I'm sure a thousand people will
now chime in that their kids don't play like that, but that is my
expectation.

Which things could we know that *other* kids would play

an588...

The onus ought, IMO, to be on the guests to be gentle with
everything until proper usage has been clarified; just
as on the street, the onus is (or should be) on a driver who
doesn't have the right of way not to drive over a pedestrian
who does. It can still be wise to take precautions,
anyway. Guests will have a wide variety of philosophies
and customs. Some people may assume that small children
can't possibly be expected to be careful with things, for
example. That may be an apparent reality in their lives.

If you've said "make yourself at home" or something,
they may feel that's opened the door to a lot of
behaviours.

toypup...

Because, as you have found, not every child is as well-trained or gentle as
yours. If there is something that is of value, then it should be protected
when others are over or else suffer the consequences. Now, I don't think
it's right that other kids might be more destructive, but such is life.
Knowing that other children may be more destructive, the toys should be
hidden away when child guests arrive, unless you know the children and know
they are gentle.

don't plan on getting anything nice until they are able to respect our stuff
more. I think teaching the kids to treat objects with respect is something
that I should have done or I have neglected to do because it does seem my
kids don't care about stuff like their dad and I do.

Sue...

I don't have much advice, like I said my kids don't have a lot of respect
for their stuff. I just don't really buy anything expensive or nice anymore
until they can handle themselves more. And as far as the couch in our family
room, which is horrible, it's up to me to be consistent and make them not
eat on the couch or the rug and I plan to once we have anything worth
keeping.

about marker markings on a mattress or dresser? Stickers on a lamp? Glue
on the bedding?

cara...

We are also in a small space, and have let our 5.5 yo daughter
'decorate' her own little desk space (stickers, doodles, whatever) as
she pleases, but I guess we've successfully drawn the line and she
doesnt' attempt such things on the 'nicer' adult furniture if that makes
sense. So, no, I'm not real strict about her stuff, although I do
expect her not to totally trash her room, but as far smaller stuff we
don't mind.

Anonymama...

We do the same. My son has his work table (actually a tall coffee-table)
that I've given up on, and it gets stuff all over it. That's okay. But
he knows that he's not supposed to draw anywhere else, including his
bookcase, the little table where he eats breakfast, or his bed, because
I don't like how it looks.

He does occasionally draw where he shouldn't, of course -- in fact right
now he's cleaning some crayon off his playroom wall -- but he's
surprisingly good about keeping his arts and crafts stuff on that table.

Caledonia...

The purposeful drawing on furniture would not go over well here.
Accidental smearing of things (like the lightswitch in the bathroom,
when DD was going to wash her hands, is totally understandable).
There's a big difference between 'the glue spilled' and 'I smeared it
all over for fun' though -- but DD1 is now 6yo; when she was 1.5yo I
wouldn't have expected her to get this.

I don't see the difference between kid-sized or not, but again, my
perspective is one where kid-sized clothes are always being handed
down, as are kid-sized furniture and toys.

-L....

Wouldn't ever happen - the opportunity for those things to be used
unsupervised by a child who doesn't know any better simply would never
exist.

Rosalie B....

The furniture is still mine even though they can use it. We sometimes
had furniture from my mom that was mine when I was little and my dd#3
had the spool bed from my great grandfather and great grandmother that
she was named for. This was a genuine antique and there was no
question that she had to treat it with care. .

But generally the non-heirloom furniture that the kids had in their
rooms was unfinished furniture that my dh finished, or else I bought
it at the junk shop or second hand store. It was often painted. So
it wouldn't have been as serious had something happened to it (I got a
chest with drawers on one side and hanging area on the other side at a
junk shop in downtown Norfolk for $5 in 1961 and after about 15 years
of use for baby clothes, ds swung on the door and cracked it off,
which was annoying, but I figured I got my money's worth out of it.)

I'm sure you can all see where this is going! We are in a very small
place and the only area we can guarantee ds1 5.5yo freedom from the
maurauding toddler little brother is his room, which we keep gated off
so he can have all his "big boy" stuff, which includes various craft
supplies, as ds1 loves to make pictures etc and it keeps him quite
happily busy often. Unfortunately, he also tends to space out and do
goofy little things without thinking. I don't think he's being

bizby40...

Hey! No fair! I said that yesterday! You even responded to me!

purposefully destructive, but it's really annoying to see scribbling on
the new boombox, marker on the mattress or sheets, inky fingers smeared
on the lamp.

Caledonia...

I can't say how I see scribbling on a boombox as accidental, but I tend
to get more wound up about people mistreating furniture than several of
my friends. Most of our furniture is rather old -- not heirloom
quality, but solid dovetailed oak and maple stuff that is built to
withstand use, so I really do expect that within the bounds of normal
use, there will be no damage. I know that particleboard dressers will
collapse if a kid bumps into them or accidentally spills water on them,
though, so perhaps what I define as 'normal use' is a higher threshold
of mistreatment than modern furniture can take...

-L....

Then he isn't mature enough to use such items unsupervised. I am sure
he has many other toys he can play with in his room.

Ericka Kammerer...

Personally, at that age I would say that if he
cannot use the craft supplies with an age-appropriate
amount of care, then the craft supplies get put away
and used only when an adult is able to supervise.
Actually, even if his behavior is age appropriate, I
wouldn't feel that it was okay for him to destroy
things and I would make the craft items supervised toys.

Nikki...

I'm with Ericka. I would probably also designate an easel with and over
sized tablet of paper or table for him to do whatever he wants on/with and
then make everything else of limits. I'd remove all craft things and give
him one item at a time and either supervise or be very concrete about where
that item can be used (ie at table or easel only) and then teach from there.

Welches...

Yes, I'd agree, generally. But inky fingers, and marker on the sheets can be
totally accidental. I'd give him a chance while you explain that he

dragonlady...

Man, that's a great visual!

Thanks for the story.

Nikki...

I went back and re-read. The kid in question is 5.5yo. That is pretty old
to be up to these kind of shennangans ;-) I think I'd implement some other
kids of consequences as well. I was thinking a younger child. Oh - and I'd
definately get only washable markers!!

Welches...

Oh I read it as 1.5 yo. (our computer's playing up and I'm not seeing most
posts). I thought 1.5 was reasonable. 5.5yo isn't in my books. Heck #2
(2.25yo) wouldn't get away with scribbling on the furniture.
But inky fingers can just be that they tend to get inky (stamping and ink
pads are strictly supervised for that reason with ours) and then don't clean
them before they touch something. Tell them not to lean on the bed while
colouring (#2 did this a couple of weeks ago-and poked a hole in the paper,
hence felt tip on the sheets) and provide a table or easle as someone else
suggested. They're old enough to understand at 5yo.
Debbie

shouldn't do this. Then provide a packet of wipes or a damp cloth, and tell
him that he must wipe his fingers on that.
Scribbling on the boombox (whatever that is)doesn't sound like it could be
accidental, so I would either make them erase it if possible, clean it
myself instead of doing something for him (like reading a story/going to the
park)-and say so: "I wanted to take you to the park, but I'm going to have
to clean this up instead. What a pity!" I did this with #1 just after #2 was
born, and she hasn't ever scribbled on something she shouldn't have
since-she'll ask if she's not sure or take away the boom box.
If he continues, I would reduce him to a pencil, rubber and piece of paper.
You can say that he can't use anything that doesn't clean up easily.
Debbie

Best wishes,
Ericka

Rosalie B....

I once carved my initials in the newel post of the house we lived in -
I was a bit older than your ds. I know that we didn't move to that

dejablues...

I got a little cherry nightstand at a used furniture store for 12 bucks, I
loved the style and it had a label from a furniture company in a neighboring
county.
When I was rubbing orange oil into it I took out the drawer, and some child
had written in pencil on the inside "February 13, 1946" with a bunch of
little hearts. I thought that was very sweet!

house until I was in kindergarten so I was at least 5. I got about
halfway through and realized that my mom would know who did it, so I
switched and carved my sister's initials instead. (I changed the R to
a B.) I heard my mom ask my sister if she had done it, and my sister
quite truthfully denied it, and my mom believed her. Even at that
age, I knew that what I was doing was wrong.

Banty...

He did, while he continued to play "toss the toys" till I got there. Well duh
someone is smashing a little boys toys :-/

Banty...

(grrr - why am I to explain obvious things about how my son doesn't want his
stuff chipped up and degraded...breaking vs. not-breaking stuff is NOT a morally
equivalent preference)

toto...

But metal cars are made to take some punishment. I doubt very much it
they are going to break from being thrown into a toy box. My kids
cars didn't break from that. In fact, they didn't even get dented
from that kind of treatment.

They were on their way out, Dad wanted to go home for the evening; I just said
"oh, I'll take care of these" or something like that. Never came up again. I
did counsel my son not to take out alllll the cars as he and the girl did, since
that's part of the problem - what made the Dad rush the cleanup.

toto...

Yeah, I can understand that too.

Banty...

Even if they didn't take out allll the cars, I think the putting away process
wasn't going to finish, as the kids were ddriiiivingg them uppppp the ramp,
turning each one, driving them uppppp the next ramp, parking them neatly next to
the car next to it, then going to the next car, drving it ooooveerrr to the
parking garage, then driving it uuupp the first ramp....

Cathy Kearns...

This explains it. I couldn't understand how an adult wouldn't notice they
were already putting away cars, and follow their lead. Apparently he
mistaked putting away for still playing. I'm sure he was mortified when he
figured out his mistake.

Anonymama...

Man, imagine how he'd feel if he saw this thread. I do hope he doesn't
read MK.

Banty...

I thought this would be a one post mention. Ha.

Did I also mention that he's the worst dishwasher-stacker in the world??

If he's reading this he'd get a complex :)

toto...

Which was probably just as much fun as the dad's game, but just
slower.

Of course, imo, I think that dad should take the time to *smell the
roses* and allow the kids to *finish* there game to put away the cars
unless he had some pressing engagement. I think sometimes we
forget to slow down.

Banty...

Um, no, it wasn't practical to wait until DOZENS of cars get driven one by one
to the parking garage to be parked in and around it - I'm with the Dad on that
aspect of it ;)

I agree with others - don't let him have things that can be a problem
until he is able to use them appropriately. No permanent markers
(surely there are other types of markers which can be used just as
well)

Some of the furniture in question are things that might be handed down
to said maurauding toddler in time, or be put into other areas of the
home such as a guest room, etc when we are in place with more space and
start aquiring more furniture.

Caledonia...

In our playroom and in both girls' bedrooms are *huge* bulletin boards
(4' x 4', homasote, covered with fabric), so the incentive is that they
can make anything and have ample space to put it up to 'decorate' their
rooms.

dragonlady...

There's really two separate questions here (at least) -- so let me try
to separate out the two that stand out for me:

First, no matter what it's on, if the child is writing on things that
aren't supposed to be written on, I'd want the craft supplies out of his
reach. And, right now, at least, it sounds like he's not ready to have
ready access to stuff like that.

However, the other question -- about how much kids should decorate
"their" stuff -- that really depended, for me, on several variables:
things like cost and size and how good it looked in the first place.
Older furniture that was already beat up might be available for
decorating, but newer stuff that was in good shape was not. When she was
small, my older daughter really liked decorating stuff, and it turned
out that she has kind of an interesting flair for it. So she had
permission, for example, to do whatever she wanted to the underside of
the top bunk (she was sleeping in the bottom bunk) and the back of the

Stephanie...

In my case, we have started taking better care of our own stuff, and
insisting that better care be taken by the kids, so that it is not a foreign
concept when they are out in the world. Otherwise, I would be completely
ignorant of any misuse of stuff, only to be mortified when visiting.

Banty...

Which is where this whole thing started..

Cheers,
Banty

toto...

Depending on the size of the planes, you might try getting
some old liquor store boxes with compartments for them.
You can glue the insert in so it doesn't move around.

dresser that separated "her" space. She used paints, markers, stickers

Nan...

Caledonia...

Agh! I *hate* those. It's almost as bad as discovering the almost-gone
TP roll, and being faced with dismantling one of those 'crochet ball
gown' dolls in order to put the new roll out.

Although now that I think of it, I haven't seen one of those outside of
a relatives house in eons....

dragonlady...

Man, I was just thinking of looking for a pattern for one of those;
maybe crochet a matching edging for some guest towels -- and a cute
little holder for the decorative soaps --

Anonymama...

Oddly enough, I couldn't find one here:

...but don't worry! The interweb won't let you down:

or, if you're feeling lazy, you could just buy one:
APER_COVERS_Poodles.html
...although I think you really should get all 21.

an588...

I don't think that's asking too much at all. It's
rather simple: just ask the owner how they want
their stuff treated. "Is it OK if I play with
your lego? Is it OK if I take this apart?"
Of course, it's a learning process. There will
be many "first times", likely even as an adult,
when one didn't ask because some possibility didn't
occur to one. But if the goal is to treat the

Banty...

Well, the kids *were* putting the cars away, in the way that allowed more
playing with the cars, and would have taken a day to finish! At some point I
will have needed to intervene just to let the girl go home and finally put the
toys away. To the Dad, it looked like they still were playing with the cars, I
think.

shinypenny...

I'm curious: how much was your son's reaction about chipped paint vs
cars not going back where they properly belong vs not wanting the
playing to end?

It raised quite a commotion ;)

Twice - once then, once on misc.kids.

stuff as the owner wants it treated, one will
learn; whereas if one is only expected to
treat it as one treats one's own, one might
tell the owner, "No, it's OK, I'm allowed
to do this, because this is how I use my own
toys." Which would be quite wrong.

Everything in dd1's room is old/thrift shop/yard sale stuff, so it's

Circe...

Not available in the States, though, at least not without a great deal of
searching. I am well aware that you folks over there have a much higher
quality of tea than we have here. The Tetley's British Blend here isn't half
bad, but it's not as good as the Tetley's you get in the UK/Ireland.

Boliath...

Ah but I am 'here' my local supermarket - Stop & Shop - have an
International aisle, they sell Barry teabags for exorbitant prices, but
they are SO worth it.

Where are you? There must be an Irish population somewhere near you -

Circe...

San Diego County. East. There are some international markets nearby, but
they cater more to the Latino/Hispanic and Arabic (we have a lot of
Chaldeans in our immediate area) populations than to the
British/Irish/Australian expats.

isn't there one everywhere? They'll have the lowdown on real tea supplies.

Circe...

The next time I get back to my favorite British Pub, where we used to go
quite often but don't frequent so much any more since we moved out east,
I'll have to ask the owner if he has any tips. Good idea!

The Irish Breakfast I'm using these days is a blend sold by Trader Joe's. I
doubt it's as good as your Barry's, but for American-sold tea, it's not half
bad.

Boliath...

It's not, I know it, I drink it, I was just being a proper tea snob :c)

Circe...

Sounds lovely. When am I coming for tea?

Boliath...

When you make the fruitcake.

Circe...

I'm sorry, I jjust don't DO fruitcake. I do a mean fruit pie, but I'm not
sure that counts!

not special. That said, I do teach her to respect it, as I want her

Banty...

The two kids were parking the little cars into the little garages (you know,
garages with ramps and levels, and many are parked side by side..) on the floor
there against a wall.

A little look around would have had a lot of information. Dad was just in a
hurry.

But, still, it amazes me that so many people think, because *some* boys chip up
and smash all their cars, and *all* boys chip up and crash *some* of their cars,
therefore *all* cars are fair game to be thrown aroud and crashed. I don't
think *any* of them are by anyone to whome they belong without permission from
the owner. Even if they're showing some damage already.

bizby40...

The problem is that I don't think very many people (and certainly
not the people here!) do things that they know will damage other
people's things. It probably never occurred to your friend that
what he was doing was damaging the cars in any way. They are
after all, metal, and pretty sturdy. What was completely obvious
to you, was not obvious at all to him. (Note that I still object to
the idea of throwing hard metal objects across the room regardless
of whether or not it will cause damage.)

It would never occur to me not to use someone's Yahtzee pad,
or to sit on their sofa, or to take my shoes off on entering their
house, or numerous other things.

Ericka Kammerer...

Doesn't that make you wonder what *other* things
would never occur to you that might be considered
reasonable expectations by others? It makes *me* wonder
that, which is what leads me to be more conservative
rather than being willing to find out only after
annoying someone.

bizby40...

It actually does two things for me.

1. It reminds me of my husband. I do the laundry, he's
mad because the cereal box is left on the counter. I
clean the kitchen, he's mad because the living room
needs vacuuming. I vacuum, he's mad because....
I have enough of walking around on eggshells in my
own house because no matter how hard I try it isn't
good enough. I get the feeling that you and Banty
are just more meticulous people than I am. That I
can try and try, but I would never be able to live up
to the standards you set.

2. It reminds me of my MIL. She is the kind of person
determined not to be any bother, but she takes it to
an incredible extreme. She once accidentally used up
the last of our Saran Jr. and decided that she had to

darth_breather...

We took this approach too. Theirs, within reason. I think the
underlying principle was not to disable the functionality of the
object. So stickers on lamps, desks, clocks and other flattish surfaces
was okay. Dropping them from a height was not. The other thought was
that the room and contents should be reasonably presentable,
age-appropriately. So stickers, drawings, even little engravings on the
furniture would be okay, slathering them with mud or black paint would
not.

dragonlady...

Right -- the black paint isn't age appropriate until they hit their teen
years. (I did refuse to let DD1 paint her room black -- since we live
in rentals, and it's too hard to cover up -- so she used black sheets to
cover the walls instead.)

Banty...

Reasonably presentable, "age - appropriately"??

It might work if one replaces furniture every few years! I dont' know about
you, but I expect to use furniture for some years. Even my son's old Little
Tykes stuff now has storage duty in the furnace room.

Rosalie B....

When my dd#3 moved to TX, I gave her the furniture that had been in
her room, some of which had also served for her older sister.
Included was a flip front desk that had been my mom's when she was a
child, and a chair. My dd's in-laws stripped the paint off the desk
and found it was made of mahogany. They painted it again. Which is
OK with me - it has been painted for probably 90 years. It isn't
like the similar desk that we have with inlaid wood on the front.

But unless something is an antique (like my great grandfather's spool
bed from the late 1800s, which my daughter's in-laws also 'cleaned
up'), there's very little bad that can be done to good quality
furniture that can't be fixed with refinishing or paint. Although my
mom lent a chest to a child of a friend and they cut the legs off,
which was pretty much irreparable.

Banty...

Sure. But the refinishing is time and labor and materials, or it has to be
hired out. And would over-cost a lot of furniture. I mean, if it's an
inexpensive piece based on particleboard or MDF laminated, it's not even
refinishable but it's useful life *is* cut short by defacement. It's a cost to
replace it, and a cost and labor (and heavy lifting for the particle board
stuff!) to get rid of the old piece.

It may be a pain to do (like removing stickers from the door), but is
usually possible.

Banty...

There's a lemon-oil based product which is popular for removing stickers (fergit
which it is, but I learned about it from alt.home.repair) which I used on some
built-ins in his room when we did renovations of the bedroom. But it was a
pain. I did allow him those stickers, though.

grandma Rosalie

get us a new one, only the stores weren't selling them
anymore, and she had to search all over creation to
get a replacement, and I just DIDN'T CARE. She
goes to such lengths not to be any trouble that she
drives me absolutely batty.

Best wishes,
Ericka

That is why if you have toys that are extra-special, or things
you don't want used up, or brand-new carpets, or whatever,
it really is up to you to let people know. Because people
can't guard against what they don't know about.

enigma...

exactly. the vintage Matchbox cars i buy are seldom pristine,
but that doesn't mean they're open game for a crash car derby.

bizby40...

I agree that TP is ridiculous. I intended it to be because I thought
her example of the Yahtzee pads was ridiculous. Heck, if you
can't use things that are intended to be used, and for the purpose
for which they are intended to be used, and apparently after
you'd already gotten permission to do the thing that necessitated
it's use....whew! Yeah, ridiculous.

toypup...

I agree absolutely.

lee

to respect the nicer furniture in the family areas.
We've had some incidents where she's put stickers on things, or drawn
on things and I've just talked to her about it and required that she

bizby40...

Goo gone? I *love* goo gone!!!

Banty...

Laura Faussone...

In addition to Goo-Gone, there's also a product called UnDu that
works really well -- the stickers are even reusable when you've
peeled them off!

Yes that's it!

It works. Needed careful clean up of the goo-gone to followup with painting,
though.

toypup...

But some things precious to one person are not precious to others. At home,
you may teach them to care for your and their precious items, and they may
treat their other belongings with not as much care. But sometimes, kids may
not realize something that's not precious to them may be precious to someone
else. The cars, for instance. I don't know a lot of boys who take great
care not to scratch up their cars, because normal use of the cars involve
crashing them together. Most children would know not to smash them with a
hammer to destroy them, but they would not know to treat them gently so as
not to scratch them. Heck, even the dad didn't know. So, if something is
to be treated with more care than usual, then it needs to be kept from
others who might not know how not to damage them. On this vein, DH won't
even let me touch his baseball cards.

Banty...

Banty...

I think Ericka put it very well - it's quite simple and no mystery about
personal preferences and quirks - just plain don't damage stuff.

That it might be OK to dunk a rubber ball in a bathtup full of wahter does not
mean it should be a mystery to you why one should not to dunk a teddy bear in
it! Likewise that you can throw a teddy bear into a toy box across the room
doesn not mean you can throw metal painted toys which are in good condition,
into a toy box across the room.

Banty...

OK "Matchbox cars are in the category of not throwing across rooms. To be
complete, the pyrex dinnerware also is in the category of not throwing across
rooms." What else can I say?? "The impact force of metal against metal creates
pings and dents in said metal. When said metal furhtermore is painted, the
pings and dents also create discontinuities in the color, which degrade the
appearance therefore the enjoyment of the item." WHAT is one supposed to SAY??

"Don't break or deface my stuff - I have this little quirk about people breaking
my stuff, really, I'm seeking counselling about this, but while I work on that,
please do avoid it because I really find it difficult to handle
right now."

How much explanation would you give someone as to why they should remove their
foot from on top of yours??

Really, my son put it rather simply if a bit primordially "No no no don't do
that." That's it. All that's needed. The owner said stop. You stop.

Ericka Kammerer...

Not before I'd go insane with all the little
containers! ;-) That's the problem--he can outlast me!

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty...

And your point is?

Rosalie B....

grandma Rosalie

Why would only *precious* things be treated with care? Especially others'
stuff.

toypup...

Things that are precious need to be handled with extra care because they are
precious. Things that are not precious are expected to be handled everyday
care. I never said children should be reckless with everyday objects, but
normal handling may result in wear and tear. If all of your things need
special handling, well, you're a bit different from anyone I know and I'd be
afraid to come over for fear of accidentally damaging something. There's no
way for most people to know that an everyday object needs extra special
care.

Barbara Bomberger...

I'm with Banty and Erika on this thing. I think everything should be
taken care of, not just precious things. So, I dont care of the couch
is ten years old, ya dont bounce on it, and I dont care if the bed is
second hand, you dont write on headboard with Markers, And even
though the dishes may be second hand corelle, yes, they deserve to be
washed and dried and treated properly. So even though leggo may be an
everyday toy, leaving pieces around to get stepped on, thrown out, or
lost is not acceptable.

Aside from the primary discussion, I happen to not believe in "toy
boxes" because things do get damaged and in general, everyime the kid
wants to get somethign out, they are dumping other toys out that they
may not play with. So we have alwyas had plastic shelves and bins.