Dancing with the Stars - choreography

Seems to me that choreography is the elephant in the room on this

VicTek...

Well, this is interesting. One of the criticisms leveled at Mario was "he
had previous dance training" (which could include a pretty wide range of
experience). I don't know if that's true, but regardless why should he or
any other contestant be penalized for it? The show has some criteria for
inviting contestants and if someone is accepted then presumably they have
met the criteria. If the show doesn't want to exclude contestants with
previous dance training why should those contestants be penalized? (or worse
be called "liars" which happened with Mario). This is another area where
the show's rules are vague, and it leads to misunderstandings and bad
feelings.

Donna B...

I think you're presuming more rigorous screening of potential contestants
than actually happens. ABC had a surprise hit on their hands with this show.
And, in typical big network style they've been tampering with it ever since.
I imagine they will tamper with it until it's no longer enough of a hit to
continue it. But, I don't see that Mario was penalized. He made it all the
way to the finals. People thought it was Joey's Season to lose and he didn't
make it out to the finals. Both could have been called ringers, and were, I
believe. I've not seen Mario called a liar, at least not when it had to do
with DwtS. If the contestants & pros didn't know enough about the show, and

Peter D...

The above may well be true, but you don't know if it's the case. If you do,
bring forth the evidence and settle the matter.

Peter D...

My opinion is that no-one has presented evidence that the stated bad acts
are true. In the absence of that, no-one can state that it is so. What part
of that is so difficult to understand.

Ron N....

My opinion is that no-one has presented evidence that the stated bad
acts
are false. In the absence of that, no-one can state that it is so.
What part
of that is so difficult to understand?

IMHO. YMMV.

Peter D...

Yes, they can. But did they?

I would suggest that Karina definitely did not (RE being graded off for
breaking the rules of the dance), then they should have taken it upon
themselves to learn more about it, or they should live with the
consequences. Most people don't seem to misunderstand & most people don't
seem to have bad feelings. Frankly, the people who seem to have bad feelings
probably would have no matter what they knew or didn't know! Just the fact
that they lost is enough, apparently, in them.

show. Much of the judges' criticism directed against the stars is
actually not the stars' fault. When the judges criticize someone for
not maintaining contact, or for otherwise deviating from the expected
steps for a particular dance, it's often a problem with the
choreography - but this is never mentioned, possibly because it would
be an implicit criticism of the pros? I'm not sure why the show
tiptoes around the performances of the pros, why the judges don't
directly address their performances and choreography...

Matthew Lybanon...

(This is only a guess, but) I think the criticism is actually implied
criticism of the pros. The pros certainly knew the rules, but in some cases
it appears they designed routines that were intended to get lots of votes
from the public, even though (the pros knew that) some of the moves violated
the rules.

KC...

Oh, it's been mentioned. There have been a few times when the judges
complained about a routine not being true to that particular dance, or
particular moves not being correct for competition and the pro
partner, who choreographed it, shook their heads in frustrated
disagreement.

One time, the pro was really put-out by the judge's remarks and
started arguing and she made some comments back stage, as well.
They've been dancing professionally, and winning, long enough to know
the rules and they objected to the implication that they didn't know
better.

Each time, though, the hosts jumped in and deflected it.

VicTek...

I should have been more specific. You are correct that Mario was not
penalized by anyone on the show - he was very much supported. He was
criticized though in the ABC.com message forum and it produced a great deal
of bad feeling among the people who posted there. My point is none of the
contestants show have to prove they deserve to be on the show. The network
people who choose the contestants for the show should take responsibility
for any screening deemed necessary.

Donna B...

It's simply impossible to imagine this kind of show being 'cast' in such a
way that fans wouldn't have different impressions, criticisms, etc. Frankly,
I can't imagine any kind of show where you could eliminate it. There's too
much possibility for subjectivity.

Regarding the issue of "breaking the rules" during performances, don't you
think that's the responsibility of the professional dance instructor who
creates the choreography? If the contestants don't know anything about

Donna B...

I think it's the responsibility of the couple - amateur plus pro. They had 6
weeks this Season before Round 1. They should have learned, as I said above.
When the judges give oral critique, the pro is included, it's critique of
the couple, although often specific things are about the amateur in terms of
improvement, etc. The marks are also for the couple.

We know from the edited non-live segments that in the beginning Mario argued
with Katrina *a lot*. I believe they were said to have argued *all week* at
least one week. Mario & Karina were chided for breaking rules early on. That
was a signal to them & to everyone about the issue of taking the rules
seriously! Some people knew it before Round 1. Some did not. After Round 1,
no one could say they didn't know. We know from other edited non-live
segments that Karina said they had no idea the judges were going to be so
picky about the rules.

It is safe to presume that some of the arguing between contestant &
professional, in general, involves what they're doing or not doing and how
they're doing it - this way or that way. I agree that a large part of
responsibility falls to the pros, but the contestants are not free of
responsibility.

If we want to contrast the two finalists, looking back, Mario argued with
Karina all the time and Emmett told Cheryl he was accustomed to being told
what to do by a coach & she was his coach.

ballroom dancing how can they know if a component of the choreography breaks
a rule?

Donna B...

I think that both Joey & Mario knew that they had broken a rule or two. They
seemed to. Presumably that's because it was discussed in rehearsal, that
they want to try to push the envelope but hope that they won't be crossing a
line, but that they might call them on it. This isn't any different from
prior seasons either on the issue of following rules.

VicTek...

Your analysis is quite reasonable, but we can't really know for certain who
knew what. My point is the whole thing comes off as a big disorganized

Donna B...

Of course. That's a given.

mess. Why is that? I don't feel that way about "So You Think You Can

Donna B...

I don't know. That's not my impression of it at all. Frankly, I think it's
getting slicker & slicker every Season & that's not necessarily a good
thing. Looking over-produced might ruin it.

Dance". I realize it's not exactly an "apples to apples" comparison, but

Donna B...

I've not watched that, so I can't make that comparison.

with regard to "viewer voting" SYTYCD shows that it's possible to give
viewers a vote without letting them overwhelm the judges scores. I don't
always agree with the judges' choices, but at least you don't see

Steve...

I think part of the problem is that almost nothing is explained to the
viewing audience - what the rules are, who sets the rules, who does
the choreography, who picks the music, etc....

VicTek...

Yes, that was definitely part of the problem for me.

Donna B...

Does it continue to be a problem? Or, have you now learned the answers to
those questions?

Steve...

Some, still not sure who picks the music, and what criteria is used.
And how it's decided which dances are gonna be performed by which
people. And why they don't perform the same dances, for the sake of
comparison...

Brandy Alexandre...

Eva Quesnell...

one. I hope you have another to fill the empty feeling of loss. :(

Brandy Alexandre...

Thanks. Not sure I want to do it all again. I'm making friend with
the ferals, dubbed "The Three Amigos," at our office. That's enough
for now.

It's fairly well defined on the web site, but one of my complaints with
television lately is too much reliance on the internet to do all their
explaining for them. Some people just don't care to be running off to
the net for something that can just as easily be explained during the
program. In the case of DWTS, they had to fill 90 minutes. Surely,

Steve...

Not to mention that if they want the audience to check the net for all
this stuff, they might consider mentioning this on the program....

Donna B...

Has been mentioned.

there was some space to explain the basic elements of the competition,
such as "The competitors will be dancing the foxtrot, watch for..."

contestants with relatively poor skills staying in while much more talented
people get eliminated, as happens on DWTS....end of line...

Donna B...

I think that's a mistake that DwtS made this Season, changing the voting
balance. That's one of the criticisms I made of it in another thread that

VicTek...

I can see that I started getting a little crazed in the above - please
excuse. I do appreciate the opinions and insights expressed. Now it's time
to get ready for the swing dance in Santa Barbara this evening - definitely
the best cure for my frustrations with DWTS .

Donna B...

Passions run high & that's okay. I can't tell you how many Results shows
had me viciously swearing this Season!!

almost made me quit watching it before the Season was out. People stayed in
too long that didn't deserve it. People were eliminated too soon that didn't
deserve that. The Season had some really good things about it, but that
wasn't one of them & I attribute that to changes in the voting process.

Brandy Alexandre...

Eva Quesnell...

Every time we bring an animal into our lives, we are also inviting it to
break our hearts someday.

How hard can it be to read a sheet of paper about the elements
permitted in a dance and those disallowed. Len seemed to be able to
put it in simple straigtforward terms, I would have a hard time
believing the rules would be something the amatuers couldn't possibly
know because they weren't dancers.