Ringo vs. Charlie Watts

Who's better and why?

Grammarian...

To me, Ringo's parts are much more integral to the arrangements. If you
take some of the fills away, there would be a space. Watts' drumming
doesn't seem nearly as interesting to me.

Runnnerr...

The bottom line is that there's no objective way to gauge a drummer.
When we say "best", we mean "favorite". If you go to the Stones group,

runtothehil...

"Best" and "favorite" have different meanings, nitwit. You admit
that you can't separate these terms, and you don't realize that
many of us, and most musicians, can easily objectify the difference
between those two words. Get out of here. Stop talking about
music. Sheeesh.
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JohnB...

Ringo was the Beatles drummer and therefore had to be the greatest.
The demands of that incredible songwriting and stylistic variety - and
he was always up to the challenge.

A recent (well, 1990's) Stones album showed the limitations of Charlie
Watts invention: you could play the opening to several tracks, all of
which began with a Charlie Watts fill, and you could not tell which was
which, they were so alike. Remember The Last Time, how that started?
How many Stones' songs start the same way?

Yourimageunreals...

"Start me up" always reminds me of the beginning of "Brown Sugar" which
was a much better song.

Have the Stones learned any new chords lately?

Runnnerr...

The Stones have pretty much been a one-dimensional band for their
entire career.

They do that one dimension sooo well though.

Rerics...

Charlie Watts mainly has a reputation as an accurate time-keeper, a
"human metronome" so to speak, which I'm not sure is all that accurate
itself. Honky-Tonk Woman seems to speed up as the song progresses, and
I doubt that it's intentional.

Danny Caccavo...

Watts is ANYTHING but an accurate time-keeper. That being said, all the
tempo variations are entirely appropriate, intentional or not.

Danny Caccavo...

(addendum - Charlie "in the day" - he sounds awful on the new album)

Yourimageunreals...

I think "You won't see me" speeds up and slows down?

Danny Caccavo...

3rd verse slows down a little. One of the few tempo changes in Beatles
recordings that are questionable.

Yourimageunreals...

Can you list some of those mistakes in Beatles songs again? It was
funny.

Danny Caccavo...

Which mistakes?

Yourimageunreals...

Any of them, Like the vocals being out of tune with the piano in "Don't
let me down."

Danny Caccavo...

Well, the main problem there is the intonation on the Hofner bass was
really bad - it would go sharp as Paul played up the neck. It was the
first time he'd used the hofner(I believe) in the studio since before
Rubber Soul.

There are some tuning things I like - what comes to mind is the organ on
"Hello Goodbye" - it's out of tune with the track, but it's a great
effect. Same thing with the Fender Rhodes on "Come Together."

12 String 325 on "Every Little Thing." Not intentionally out of tune,
but a nice effect anyway (which John does those slides correctly, which
he sometimes doesn't do ).

Oh, yeah, speaking of messed up slides, what's with George's intro
guitar to "Slow Down" - totally doesn't know what he's doing!

And isn't it amazing how consistently ON their vocals are? Nowadays, it
seems nobody can sing without pitch correction...

I love it all....

Dale Houstman...

Quite a number of recorded songs drift in tempo. The fact is, humans
aren't drum machines. If that's all drummers were, they wouldn't be

Dale Houstman...

Drummers don't just keep the beat; they respond like humans to the
quirks and inadequacies (time-wise) of the other players. They will do

Yourimageunreals...

Your're right. I'm too lazy to go though this thread and figure out what
we we talking about..but I think it was about Drum machines or the
like..you were discussing. You said something like Real drummers aren't
needed,
and anything that keeps time will work.
I disagreed with you. Then I told you..real drummers "are" needed, and
then you said most drummers couldn't keep time. Then I said to you that
if they can't at least keep time, most bands can't use them. My response
is still the same. Now, you are telling me all of the things that
drummers have to do, and you are right.
But..your new response doesn't make sense.
All I saying was..drummers have to at least keep time..which is the
truth right?

their best of course to keep the whole shebang together, but they do not
act like drum machines: if they did only that, they wouldn't be needed
at all. Any machine could do a better job.

Yourimageunreals...

What???? Ok, you use a machine. I've done that in bands I've been in.
That's over. No thanks. I will always use a human drummer.

needed. Miked egg timers and coo-coo clocks could work as well.
Heightened passion and involvement in a song will tend to make a
performance uneven in tempo, and a good drummer adjusts. Drum machines
are actually too rigid for many sorts of music. And if you really want
to hear tempo drfit, listen to any number of blues performers, as they
ratchet a song's delivery up and down, their passion - not some
mummified ideal of beat - driving the music.

Condon...

Drum machines have long had a feature that actually introduces a bit of
drift into a tempo so it doesn't sound too unrealistic and robotic.

Dale Houstman...

I know. The thrust of the discussion isn't really about the potential of
drum machines, but about human drummers. In that respect, I was using
drum machines merely as a convenient metaphor for "unrealistic and
antithetical expectations of consistency in bands." By the way, I've
heard those drum machines with built-in drift: they aren't so good.
They're merely convenient, and obviously better than having no drummer
at all, which happens. Like in the musical group I'm a part of. But even
we are trying to create our own percussion, no matter how lame we are at

Yourimageunreals...

Hey, Dale, the important thing..is that you are having fun. That's all
that matters.

it.

Condon...

I was more adding to your comments than trying to inform you personally of
anything.

I agree that even with the built-in drift patterns on drum machines it is
still not totally lifelike, and I realize that that was not exactly what you
were talking about (i.e., the difference between purposeful changes versus
human frailty changes).

Lookingglass...

Give me a "drifty" Ringo or Keith Moon anyday............ ;^)

dave (...it's got a back-beat...you can't lose it...)

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you'll find that nearly everyone there thinks that Charlie is the
greatest drummer in the world.

There was a similar thread to this a while back in the Who group and
Ringo was slammed. Oh well. Most of the regs from that group are pretty
small-minded dweebs anyway.

Lookingglass...

...they are both better than me............ ;^)

dave (...I used to be angry young man...)

Runnnerr...

They're both great drummers.

Keith Moon was better than both of them.

Dale Houstman...

True.

Keith Moon was better than any drummer.

Dale Houstman...

He was very good - although not in a strictly technical fashion, but
more in his marshalling of a ferocious energy. I would place beside or
above him (if hierarchy management was a hobby of mine) several of the
greatest jazz drummers, such as Elvin Jones and Max Roach and Joe Jones,
who could all create fantastic fills (ala Ringo), but with a far more
sophisticated sense of rhythm. But that's in the nature of jazz. Amongst
strictly rock drummers, my favorite really is Ringo, due to his nice
combination of simplicity and crispness, and his rather wide spectrum of
effects, making it possible for him to support a large range of music
types, from country to psychedelic. But what do I know? I have the
rhythmic sense of a porous umbrella stand.

Runnnerr...

Well, yes, I was writing strictly about rock drummers. Keith has always
been my favorite and therefore, in my (and all ours) very subjective
eyes, the best.

When talking about jazz drummers, Max Roach was about my favorite along
with Big Sid Catlett.

Dale Houstman...

Oh, I forgt to mention him! Fabulous...

Don't forget Fred Below (sp?) who played on so many great blues sides
as well.

Robert...

But would Keith Moon been the right drummer for The Beatles?

Seth Jackson...

But would Keith Moon been the right drummer for The Beatles?

ian...

1. They both are.
2. Because they're who they are.

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