Interesting George Martin quote about Lennon & Mccartney

20 Sep 2006 21:18:38 -0700 rec.music.beatles
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Salvador Astucia...

terra...

And like many people Martin was quite contradictory.

While you sieze one quote to advance your mental vagueness he has said on
other occasions that they were five co-equal partners in the music. To wit,
"Still, the five of us were a *team* - we were five equal people in the
studio...I was *part* of them."

Salvador Astucia...

Regardless of where you got that Martin quote, it's really irrelevant
because it's similar to the original Martin quote I posted, and I added
more for Derek because he didn't like that Martin had called George
Harrison an "also-ran". Here is the full quote which is completely
consistent with the one you've mentioned:

"I must emphasize that it was a team effort. Without my arrangements
and scoring, very many of the records would not have sounded as they
do. Whether they would have been any better, I cannot say. They might
have been. That is not modesty on my part; it is an attempt to give a
factual picture of the relationship. But equally, there is no doubt in
my mind that the main talent of that whole era came from Paul and John.
We were not all five equal people artistically; two very strong, and
the other three were also-rans. In varying degrees those three could
have been other people. The fact is, we were not. Although you could
say of a successful football team that it might have done as well with
another goalkeeper, or another centre-forward, the fact remains that
the goalkeeper and the centre-forward are in the team, and as part of
it they cannot be discounted." (George Martin, All You Need Is Ears,

Salvador Astucia...

I don't think "also-ran" is necessarily an insult. It's pretty
descriptive of George and Ringo, in my opinion. They were competent,
but neither were not the artistic genius of the Beatles. Still, I get
the impression that George Martin didn't particularly care for George
Harrison's music, especially the Indian sitar stuff. Martin described
Harrison's song, 'Within You Without You,' from Sgt. Pepper, in less

"Again, George's contribution [to Sgt. Pepper], 'Within You Without
You', was, with all deference to George, a rather dreary song, heavily
influenced by his obsession with Indian music at that time. I worked
very closely with him on the scoring of it, using a string orchestra,
and he brought in some friends from the Indian Music Association to
play special instruments. I was introduced to the dilruba, an Indian
violin, in playing which a lot of sliding techniques are used. This
meant that in scoring for that track I had to make the players play
very much like Indian musicians, bending the notes, and with slurs
between one note and the next." (George Martin, All You Need is Ears, p
203)

pp. 259-260)

Salvador Astucia

Salvador Astucia...

There's nothing "mentally vague" about George Martin's description of
himself, George and Ringo as "also-rans." It's such a strong term, I

Lookingglass...

I disagree...take out George and you take out the incredible influence that
classical Indian music had on George first, and then the rest of the boys.
No George... no Ravi Shankar influence...no RAIN...TOMORROW NEVER
KNOWS...and no Indian influenced guitar solos such as in TAXMAN and
others...not to mention the Rishikesh expeditions that produced much of the
music recorded for White Album.

Change any one element of the equation, and it would have been a different
band...IMHO

dave (...relax and float downstream...)

think that's what he meant to write. Perhaps when the actual recording
process began in the studio, they were all five equals. But as artists,
John and Paul were the main talent. That's essentially what Martin said
in the cited quote.

Salvador Astucia

Lookingglass...

We were all astounded by their early years...they grabbed our attention and
did not let go till 'the end'. They took us on a rollercoaster ride. I came
from a 'classical' background, so I had a great appreciation for the
'orchestrated' years. I was something we had never heard before...startling.
George and the boys became a team under the brand name THE BEATLES. It
really was a 'beacon' time for music.

...I love it all.

dancin' dave (...all the world's a birthday cake...)

Jeff...

"The Beatles were really John and Paul"

If this were the case, why didn't they get rid of George and Ringo?
They didn't need them, as you put it.

Here's an interesting bit of information (although not new) that may
shock some George Harrison fans, from the book, "All You Need is Ears,"
by George Martin:

"I must emphasize that it was a team effort. Without my arrangements
and scoring, very many of the records would not have sounded as they
do. Whether they would have been any better, I cannot say. They might
have been. That is not modesty on my part; it is an attempt to give a
factual picture of the relationship. But equally, there is no doubt in
my mind that the main talent of that whole era came from Paul and John.
We were not all five equal people artistically; two very strong, and
the other three were also-rans." (p 259)

dlarsson...

1. Martin's role in the arrangement, implementation of ideas,
the use of varied and unusual instruments, and even
composition to a degree - as well as music scoring -- was
pivotal to the Beatles sound and musical development
and enlarging the Beatles range and scope.

2. George Harrison was not an "also-ran". Harrison was
the best instrumentalist and most technically proficient
guitarist in the band, was a fine songwriter in his own
right (even if he had a smaller number of contributions),
and was an innovator in the incorporation of Indian
music, use of instruments such as the Swordmandel
(as well as the Sitar), incorporating the 12-string
Electric sound, and also contributed various ideas
into L&M songs like the 6th harmony in "She Loves You".

Harrison was overshadowed because John & Paul had far
more aggressive, dominant, type of personalites and because
they were seen as "the songwriters" of the group. But it is
a mistake to think of Harrison as just a session player.
He helped create the "Beatles sound" and was a key part of
their musical invention and development.

Remember, John & Paul didn't go anywhere until George
Harrison joined the band. Lennon did not even want him at first,
as he was much younger, but he could not deny that Harrison
was a better player than either he or Paul were and made a
smart decision to let this little kid into his post-High School
band. At that point, the Beatles had a musicial credibility that
they did not have before then. Remember also that Harrison
beat-out McCartney for the position of "Lead Guitarist" in the
band and, as a result, demoted McCartney to the "bass player".
And as the Beatles ended, the quality of Harrison's own music
was on equal footing with John & Paul and the most successful
of the first batch of Beatles solo albums was indeed Harrison's
"All Things Must Pass" (and not albums by either
Lennon or McCartney).

Harrison lacked the aggression the John & Paul had,
John's inspiration and brilliant manic energy, and Paul's
workaholic industry and good looks. He did not produce
the same output that they did, but he was no "also ran".
Harrison was integral to the Beatles sound and success.
The Beatles would not have been the same without him.

While you could argue that John & Paul could have created
"the same thing" with another heavyweight such as an
"Eric Clapton" or "Peter Green" or whomever, there was
a special chemistry both instrumentally and also vocally
that occurred with John/Paul/George and things may not
have worked in a comparable way - without that
unique chemistry.

Salvador Astucia...

Derek,

I agree that "also-ran" is a strong word. That's why I thought it was
interesting that George Martin, of all people, held that opinion of
George and Ringo, not to mention himself.

But to be fair to Martin, I should have posted the ensuing paragraph
which helps provide more context:

"In varying degrees those three [Harrison, Starr, Martin] could have
been other people. The fact is, we were not. Although you could say of
a successful football team that it might have done as well with another
goalkeeper, or another centre-forward, the fact remains that the
goalkeeper and the centre-forward are in the team, and as part of it
they cannot be discounted." (George Martin, All You Need Is Ears, pp.
259-260)"

There is no question, in my opinion, that George Harrison deserves a
lot of credit for the success of the Beatles. As you say, he was an
outstanding guitarist. And in my view, it was his selection of the
Gretsch Country Gentleman and the Gretsch Gretsch Tennessean guitars
that had a lot to do with the Beatles' early twangy guitar sound and
their subsequent success. Professional guitar players know that those
model Gretsch guitars are fine instruments with unique sounds. During
the so-called "British Invasion," many guitarists used Gretsch Country
Gentleman and Tennessean guitars as a means of imitating George's
sound. American groups like the Byrds and Beau Brummels also used those
guitars, obviously copying George. Many sixties guitarists also copied
George's use of the Rickenbacker 12-string (although I believe it was
John who suggested that George try one out). Nevertheless, I have to
agree with Martin that once success was achieved, it was Lennon and
McCartney who soared in the studio. Harrison grew a lot because he
observed their techniques and produced some great work after the
Beatles broke up. But I cannot discount or disagree with Martin's view
that in the studio during the Beatle years, John and Paul were the
"main talent."

An also-ran is a horse that was in the race, but didn't come in first.
To me, that's not a bad description of George and Ringo's participation
the Beatles. Being in the race at all in the pop music field is no
small achievement.

Salvador Astucia

- Derek

Eric Ramon...

you didn't let me down, Derek. Nice work!

Salvador Astucia

Lookingglass...

Mr Martin is a very modest Gentleman.

dave (...in my life I've loved them all...)

terra...

It's one thing he said in a quote. I just provided another. Quote. of
his.

Salvador Astucia...

Putting quotation marks around a phrase does not make something a
genuine quote. Plus, your so-called quote does not conflict with the
other Martin quote (which is real, and can be verified). Martin may
have believed the five-man Beatle team were equals *in the studio*, but
also believed John and Paul were the main talent artistically, as far
as writing songs and generally being creative -- stuff that went on
*outside* the studio.

Salvador Astucia

Lookingglass...

I personally believe if it weren't for George (Harrison AND Martin) and
Ringo, John and Paul may have never developed into who they were and are...
the relationship between them pushed and inspired ALL of them. As the
Beatles themselves stated, "It was a marriage..!". If you take one of those
elements out of the equation, who knows what we would have ended up with.

Fortunately, THAT did not happen! 'What if...' questions are OK for
conversation, but THE MUSIC and legacy that is THE BEATLES is real and is
with us today...because of ALL the participants involved.

terra...

Sal actually says that. It was the team, the four or five of them that were
repsonsible for the music, but J & P were the ones creating most of the
songs that became the music so yeah, they were more involved.

dave (...would you stand up and walk out on me...)

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