Beach Boys Still Alive and Well, Were Are the Beatles???

Mike Love and Bruce johnston have managed to bring about a Beach Boy

donz5...

Apology accepted; I'll take actual quotes, not you magically
transforming what Al _hopes_ will happen into a done deal. Again, what
"facts" have been presented that you claim has been a "willful
dismissal of?"

And how's that research re Bruce's piano playing on "California Girls"
going? Have you found anything that contradicts Brian ID'ing the piano
player at the session as Al de Lory? Or anything that contradicts
Brian's and Bruce's own words re Bruce's first professional association
with the group -- _after_ the CB backing tracks session?

What's that? Oh, just crickets chirping.

poisoned rose...

"BlackMonk has a tendency to turn unexpectedly obstinate over quirky
issues" -- me, 5/1/06

BlackMonk...

Promise to answer my question if I do? After all, Badham isn't a primary
source.

Bruce Johnston, however, is.

From the Pet Sounds box liner notes:

"At the end of the session, Carl was really tired, and he went home," Bruce
continued. "There were just the two of us. So, in the fade, [Brian]'s
singing two of the three parts. He sang the top and the bottom part, and I

donz5...

When did Mickey Dolenz enter this discussion?

BlackMonk...

He's not singing on the record either.

donz5...

I can't even recognize Bruce's voice, so I'd be hard pressed to
recognize Terry's or Carl's, because, as I said, each part is doubled.
For all you or I know, Bruce might be doubling Terry's or Carl's.

BlackMonk...

No. I do recognize Bruce and Carl's voice, and I sort of know Terry's. It's
Bruce on the record, not Terry or Carl. (who, as you know, sing the main
lead vocal. Do either of the voices in the round sound like him?)

Which brings us to my initial and constant refrain that you refuse to
accept: the evidence is inconclusive.

BlackMonk...

It isn't inconclusive. There's no evidence that anyone but Bruce and Brian
might be on the tag.

All you have is that there was an earlier version with other vocalists
recorded. You don't know that anything from the earlier version remains, you
don't even know that the earlier version had them singing the same parts
that the released version used.

donz5...

Precisely; you don't know that they aren't. Thus, **inconclusive**.

We do have Bruce's statements that the earlier version was pared down to the
three parts used, and that he and Brian are the ones singing the three
parts, and we have the fact that no other singers are audible on the record.

donz5...

That's not was Bruce said. He says only that he and Brian recorded the
tag after Carl left. He _does not_ say that **all** earlier tracks were
completely (key word) eliminated.

The preponderance of evidence is that it's Brian and Bruce on the record.

donz5...

In your opinion. In mine -- based on the available evidence presented

Is it possible that other vocalists are on the record, only mixed so low
that they're inaudible? Yes, but it's also possible that Bernard Purdie
actually played drums on all the Beatles records and all evidence to the
contrary was faked. Is it a possibility worth taking seriously? No.

donz5...

I readily acknowledge that I misread your sentence. That was the first

BlackMonk...

The honorable thing would have been to do that when your error was pointed
out to you.

That was the first

instance, out of the blue, of your anonymous PS liner notes author.

BlackMonk...

Brad Elliott. He's not anonymous. Look at the notes. He's clearly credited.

Incidently, you had no trouble with givining an anonymous source claiming
that there was no Beach Boys reunion planned.

Where exactly is this quote? Which booklet, what page? This is the
second quote from this source that you've cited, leaving it to others
to locate precisely where. I found the Bruce quote (more extensive than
you allowed), no thanks to you. It's an honorable and honest practice
to provide an exact source when offering an exact quote.

BlackMonk...

You mean like, "someone on a mailing list said it?"

It's on the same page as the Bruce quote. Incidently, regarding the Bruce
quotes, I thought I provided a link to a page where they were posted. If I
didn't, I apologize.

Anyway, here it is:

In the discussion of the stereo mix of God Only Knows made in the 90s, which
uses Carl's vocals, it says that Carl recorded his vocals after the version
used in the mono mix, however, Brian eventually decided to use the earlier
version.

"During the 1966 vocal session for the round, Carl had become tired and
left. Brian then sang Carl's part in the round, as well as his own. At the
end of the session, Brian did a mixdown of that version. At a later date,
Carl recorded his part, simultaneously erasing Brian's vocal on it.
Ultimately, however, Brian decided to use the mixdown he'd done featuring
only himself (twice) and Bruce on the ending round. Thirty years later, when
Linett went to mix the song for stereo, he was forced to use Carl's
previously-unused vocal for the round instead of Brian's more familiar vocal
on the part."

To the larger point -- pending actual source, having the "writer of the
PS liner notes" claim an analytical detail might be as reliable as your
two narratives claiming Bruce played piano on "California Girls." (Is

Evile Bolinsky...

Dude, he wrote "Disney Girls" and "I Write the Songs". He gets none of
my respect.

this the same writer who once described "Prayer" as a "chant"?)

BlackMonk...

I never heard that. Since you know who wrote the liner notes now, is it the
same writer?

Incidently, I don't think that's a musicological error as much as a lazy
writer listening to Prayer and thinking "that sounds sort of like a
Gregorian Chant." However, either way, it's incorrect.

Honesty goes a long way towards one's credibility, BlackMonk.
Stubbornness in the face of overwhelming evidence (Brian's reference to
"Al" [referring clearly and only to Al de Lory], and Brian's and
Bruce's own words on Bruce's professional entrance into the band) and
childish accusations ("Liar") only make you out as a desperate fool
who's incapable of admitting error or faulty sources.

BlackMonk...

You're the one who brought this to a personal level. And you might take note
of the fact that while I'm trying, not always successfully, to make this
about the Beach Boys again, you're the one who wants to keep this at a
personal level.

sang the middle."

BlackMonk...

AMG credits him with playing piano on California Girls:

I also found an interview with him that credits him with piano, though
that's part of the writer's commentary and not a direct quote.

Band that
sounds and feels just like the original band. Last Saturday night in
Florida proves without a

BlackMonk...

Debunked by who? Got a cite?

donz5...

Cite is the petsounds mailing list, where someone there wrote this on
May 16 (and my mistake -- it wasn't "weeks ago" but rather 5 days ago.
It just felt like weeks ago):

donz5...

Argh -- I need a new calendar; let's try 7 days ago, not 5.

Lizz Holmans...

Ah, so you keep banker's hours. That must be why you didn't have time
to autograph your wonderful CD 'Red Sails in the Sunset'.

Lizz 'Collective noun for bankers: wunch of bankers' Holmans

donz5...

I feared writer's cramp from signing all of those CDs. All 7 of them.

"Hi Folks! Saw on The Beach Boys ESQ site that there's the possibility
of a
reunion gig! Any more news on this? Are the rifts being heeled? Mind
you
after what ML did it would seem far fetched for any of the others to
want to
share the same stage as him!"

To which someone else, far more knowledgeable than I over these
matters, responded: "In a word, no. More rumour."

thought to the possibility
that it might have been someone else's idea -- other than MLs?"

Party #4 replies: "Sure! It might have been Bruce's idea. Or Al's.
Brian? I think not."

BlackMonk...

Carl is on an alternate mix, only Bruce and Brian are on the originally
released album. What's indisuptible is that Bruce is on it and Terry
Melcher isn't, contrary to what your original quote suggested. From
listening, Bruce's voice is prominent on the tag, Carl's, if it is there,
isn't.

BlackMonk...

quoting and research.>

I see you snipped the original quote, but to restore context, you said that
Terry Melcher recorded vocals with Brian and Carl, omitting any mention of
Bruce.

donz5...

You're quite amazing, since I had actually earlier provided the _full_
quote after it was _you_ who gave only a partial quote by Johnston.

The fact is that whether or not Carl is on the record, it's undisputable
that Bruce is and Terry Melcher isn't, so your quote, though factual since
Melcher did record vocals, is misleading.

donz5...

More amazement. There's nothing "indisputable" about Melcher not being
on the record. That's simply your opinion.

BlackMonk...

Is there any evidence that they're still on the record?

BlackMonk...

It's an example of a theory that's equally as plausible as your theory that
there are other vocalists besides Bruce and Brian on the tag.

Would you say that it's inconclusive that Ringo played the drums on the
majority of Beatles recordings and that Purdie only played an overdub on the
American release of an early single?

BlackMonk...

Another bit of dishonesty from Donz, he claims that it's "simply (my)
opinion" that Melcher isn't on the record, yet he's been shown comments from
Bruce Johnston which state that the only voices heard at the end of the song
are his and Brian's. Donz might not believe Johnston or the writer of the
Pet Sounds liner notes, who unambiguously states "But, ultimately, there

BlackMonk...

I should be graciousness about you making false statements about me and then
not acknowledging them until forced?

BlackMonk...

I have no problem with you not wanting to give names, but it was still an
anonymous source. You can use anonymous sources or you can criticize othe
people for using them.

were only two voices heard in the round," but that's one primary and one
secondary source who say that Melcher isn't on it, so it's not just my
opinion.

donz5...

See, your problem, BlackMonk, is that you're altering Bruce's quote.
Nowhere does he say, as _you_ quoted, ""But, ultimately, there were
only two voices heard in the round."

Once again, here's his exchange, in full:

"Brian really worked a lot on 'God Only Knows,' and at one
point, he had all the Beach Boys, Terry Melcher and two of the Rovell
sisters (Brian's wife Marilyn and her sister Diane) on it. It just got
so overloaded; it was nuts. So he was smart enough to peel it all back,

and he held voices back to the bridge, me at the top end, Carl in the
middle and Brian on the bottom. At that point, Brian's right move was
to get subtler. He had a very tender track there. 'God Only Knows' is a

very small masterpiece with a major heartbeat, and he was right to peel

everybody back and wind up with the three parts. In fact, it's probably

the only well-known Beach Boys track that has just three voices on it.

Anyway, the really cute thing is that at the end of the session, Carl
was really tired, and he went home. So Brian ... remember, this was
8-track, so, he now has these extra tracks at his disposal. But there
were just the two [of] us. So in the fade, he's singing two of the
three parts. He sang the top and bottom, and I sang in the middle."

Try to pay close attention here, BlackMonk, as it gets tiring to see
you alter direct quotes: There's nothing in the above citation that
proves beyond any doubt that the _ONLY_ voices during the round are
Bruce's and Brian's. We don't know if other vocal tracks on the 8-track
were retained as Bruce and Brian added their vocals as he described it.
We don't know if Carl had recorded any of his vocals during this
section before he left after being tired. And we don't know if
Melcher's vocals were wiped.

We do know that there exists an earlier mix with Melcher and co. What
we don't know is _precisely_ which tracks were deleted when Bruce and
Brian added theirs.

I hope this is clear. Just, please, no more made-up quotes. It makes
you look desperate.

Here's a yes or no question. Did you intend to suggest Melcher sang the tag
rather than Johnston?

donz5...

I "intended" to give full quotes to what Bruce and Carl remembered
about that session. Others can then take what they can from those

BlackMonk...

Nowhere did I claim Bruce said it. Reread what I wrote, " Donz might not
believe Johnston or the writer of thePet Sounds liner notes, who

BlackMonk...

I'd suggest you reread your own posts.

unambiguously states "But, ultimately, there were only two voices heard in
the round,"

The writer of the liner notes said what I quoted and I attributed the quote
to him.

Bruce Johnston said ""There were just the two of us. So, in the fade,
[Brian]'s singing two of the three parts. He sang the top and the bottom
part, and I sang the middle.""

BlackMonk...

Just Bruce Johnston's word.

We don't know if other vocal tracks on the 8-track

BlackMonk...

Have you heard the song? Do you hear them?

BlackMonk...

Reread the quote.

BlackMonk...

Yes, we do. All of them. Read what Bruce said. Listen to the record.

BlackMonk...

More lies from you. I never made up a quote. You've even confirmed that what
I quoted was what he said.

quotes.

Here's a yes or no question for you -- do you still claim that Bruce
played the piano during the intro (or anywhere) of "California Girls"?

BlackMonk...

Yes, in your last post. Before that, before I gave the quote by Johnston,
you only credited Melcher.

This is your exact post:

Even after every piece of credible documentation establishes that he
didn't?

If no, why did you post that quote, rather than either detail in full who
sang at the session or post a quote about who actually sang on the end of
the released version of "God Only Knows?"

donz5...

It's astonishing, really, your tendency to challenge one's "intent"
rather than deal with what was provided -- full (not, in your case,
selected) quotes that describe in detail what Carl and Bruce recall

BlackMonk...

I believe that's exactly as I described it.

BlackMonk...

Amazing. You know that the tag with Melcher on it wasn't used. Presumably,
you've heard the record and know that Melcher isn't on it, yet you're
claiming that he might be on the record.

I suppose you also think The Honeys might be on the record, too.

about that session. Are Melcher and Carl on the end tag? As I wrote

BlackMonk...

You didn't. All you posted at first was

BlackMonk...

Since you didn't answer my question, why should I answer yours?

(which you appear to have forgotten), the evidence is inconclusive,
your "indisputable" claim notwithstanding.

donz5...

The original quote stands as is. I've been nothing but honest in my
quoting and research.

I'll look for more information about the intro to California Girls.

donz5...

I doubt you'll find any more info than what I've provided.

You're always so gracious when acknowledging error. Pride is such a
debillitating trait.

Party #2 also replies to #3 with: "I've not given it much thought at
all. It's nigh-on an impossibility with the lawsuits and bad feeling.
Why would they, anyway?"

And there the discussion ended. There's been zip confirmation of said
rumor. I'll go with Party #2's take, as she knows of what she says.
What the ESQ site wrote was the "possibility" of a reunion performance,
not what you claim was a done deal (you: "Brian's going to be
performing with Love, Johnston, and Al Jardine again.") Big difference.

BlackMonk...

I was hoping for something more official than the speculation of an unnamed
person who thinks it doesn't sound right.

"I've not given it much thought at
all. It's nigh-on an impossibility with the lawsuits and bad feeling.
Why would they, anyway?"

That doesn't even suggest any official knowledge, just that she doesn't
believe it. "Why would they'" is different from "they've said they wouldn't
do it."

donz5...

Let's review: You originally stated: "Then you'll be heartbroken to
know that [Brian]'s going to be performing with Love, Johnston, and Al
Jardine again."

You wrote this as absolute fact. All that was out there was the
**possibility** of a reunion performance.

I'll take the ruminations of this "unnamed person" over your inflating
the "possibility" to a done deal.

Tell you what -- get back to us when there actually is a reunion
performance. Until then, it remains rumor, gossip, nothing with any
credibility.

BlackMonk...

That's pretty much what your response was, so we're even.

donz5...

I didn't realize that separating known facts from fiction and
unsubstantiated claims was a competition.

I'll have to look to find the exact quote, but at least one of the Beach
Boys (from memory, I think it was Al) expects it to happen.

donz5...

I'll be waiting at the edge of my chair.

BlackMonk...

You call it an answer, but it wasn't.

dount the Beach Boys are Americas Band. I video taped the show and
went home and
made a DVD out of it, its great audio and video. Contact me if you want

BlackMonk...

In saying the evidence is inconclusive, which only you believe, you're
saying that it's possible Melcher is on the record. That's a claim.

BlackMonk...

I gave you an actual quote. You gave me supposition from an anonymous person
on a mailing list. If you consider that debunking next to the word of a
Beach Boy, you have extremely low standards when someone's saying what you
want to hear.

, not you magically

BlackMonk...

At my own pace.

donz5...

Good one.

Have you found anything that contradicts Brian ID'ing the piano

BlackMonk...

He didn't. He called someone Al. You're the one who concluded that it was Al
de Lory and he was playing piano.

donz5...

I'm almost speechless at your refusal to acknowledge the fundamental
logic presented.

Brian refers several times to "Al," in one instance specifically
referring to "Al" having rushed a measure. We can hear the instrument
rushing said measure to be that of a ::curses!:: piano.

Then there's the terribly inconvenient fact that no other musicians at
the session are named "Al."

Did Brian say "Bruce"? No, he said "Al." Was Bruce at the session? No.
When did Bruce become a part of the Beach Boys family? A day or two
_after_ the CG session.

Such plain, simple, and direct evidence you're still unwilling to
accept. Why is a question only you can explain.

But won't. Just more deflective crickets.

BlackMonk...

As opposed to you claiming that Bruce Johnston never said there were only
two vocalists on the tag of God Only Knows, despite the fact that he said
"So, in the fade, [Brian]'s singing two of the three parts. He sang the top
and the bottom part, and I sang the middle?"

donz5...

There you go yet again. Please cite, with direct and verifiable quotes,
where I "claimed that Bruce Johnston never said there were only two
vocalists on the tag of God Only Knows."

Lizz Holmans...

But that's a perfectly good tactic if you've got one strong batter and
one weak one. It keeps the good batter in longer.

Lizz 'My foot is getting better; I hope I don't lose my place in the
England XI' Holmans

to know
more at imsurfingandurnot@yahoo.com

- Yours Truly David

Runnnerr...

Could you please define "Americas (sic) band"?

tom...

Dallas Cowboys with guitars?

IBen Getiner...

"Better to burn out than to fade away..."