Could Lennon stand up to Dylan today?

If John had lived, would his music today stand up to Bob
Dylan's? Would Lennon have the standing in the music world that

rwalker...

snip

Dylan doesn't even stand up to Dylan these days. Much like McCartney,
if he hadn't done what he did in the 60s and 70s, hardly anyone would
be paying any attention to his current output.

Dylan does today?

mcnews...

dylan's new record looks pretty good.
any takers yet?

Dale Houstman...

Me. It's very good. The guy's cruising into old with renewed authority

waltbrad...

I don't know why I'm following up on this particular post, but I sure
would have liked to have seen what Lennon would have done had he lived.

But, it seems to me that his best work was always done in
collaboration. And had he lived there may have been a slew of
inspiration and all kinds of different collaborators available to him.
(by collaborator I don't necessarily mean a songwriting partner - just
someone that worked with him and shared ideas the way Elton John did.)

But I think Yoko also interfered with this. She was/is just to jealous
and mendacious. Around her Lennon would have never been able to
cultivate friendships with people who had strong personalities -- only
lackies and people unrelated to the music business.

and power. But I'm bias...

mcnews...

the AJC (atlanta paper) gave it a nearly half page review.
guess i'll bite.

BTW - try the newest paul simon?
it is a very nice listen.

Dale Houstman...

I'm sure I will try it, but Paul Simon has been almost as disappointing
in his way as John's last recording was to me: the intelligence is still
there, and he knows how to get the most out of other musicians, but the
songs seem a bit flat, lyrically and musicially. Maybe I'm just growing
jaded...

Sixties Gen...

FWIW, I would take Simon, Lennon, and Neil Young's singer-songwriting
over Dylan's anyday.

terra...

sigh
Your mind is so made up you cannot even let the possibility of allowing
something in....not good. But then Bob isn't the one who loses. (And I am
not pontificating from on high, I am the same way about new music in
general. I have most all the stuff I need, and I rarely hear anything
anymore that excited me as it did way back when; a function of my own
hardening arteries, I am sure, much more than the quality of many musicians
out there).

Dale Houstman...

And I wouldn't. Simon was never as intriguing as Dylan. Neil is still
good, but even he (I wager) would think that Dylan was "The Man". Lennon
- in his last few outings: not a chance.

Lizz Holmans...

Paul Simon never got over the fact he went to college.

Sixties Gen...

And that remark is snobbish and anti-intellectual.

Lizz Holmans...

Oh, dear. I am sorry.

Sixties Gen...

Sarcasm does not become you, my dear.

There may not be much difference, between Lizz Holmans and Paul Simon,

poisoned rose...

Discipline is probably my favorite album of its year, but I would
not count "agelessness" among its virtues.

poisoned rose...

This comment seems to go along with what I said earlier about it
sounding "pat" and "well-scrubbed."

if we measure their diplomas.

terra...

I love Paul Simon, but Lizz is not incorrect, he was an English teacher's
biggest friend. I first heard of him as a frosh in high school when the
20-something teacher handed out the lyrics to Sounds of Silence as an
example of modern day poetry.

I like him for that aspect, much like Sting...there is no reason why good
music has to be dumbed down. But he did seem to wear the intelligensia mask
pretty clearly in his lyrics. But it impressed someone like me with much
of its cleverness since I din't have those lyrical chops.

But Lizz, songs like America and Kathy certainly did display feelings, as
well as his songs about isolation (I am a Rock, Silence, etc.). It wasn't a
lack of emotive work on his part, but there was a sort of sterility about
most of it I suppose.

Lizz Holmans...

The most common emotion expressed in his early work was self--pity.
Very sophomoric, but with rhymes clever enough to be labelled
'intellectual'. That's why so many of us 'intellectuals' in high
school bought into that stuff. I don't mean it wasn't pretty music:
Simon is good with tunes and words, and has improved as he's aged. I
mean, he's even given up the baseball cap now. I don't feel that he
was ever talking to *me*, though. He sure wanted us to know he had
heard of Robert Frost. He seemed not to want to be associated with
those rufty-turfty hairy-arsed rock and rollers or scruffy
street-level 'folk' singers. His Bob Dylan impersonation is painful in
its lack of humor, whereas the Bobster was frequently very funny.

No one could be that self-conscious and be unaware of hir own egoboo
needs. Perhaps that's one of the reasons he had to break with Art.
Genuises need to be taken down a peg in their own estimation
occasionally to make them fit to live with.

I saw them in concert in 1969 (L). It was beautifully played and they
sang like angels. But Art seemed to be having more fun.

Besides, watching Marcus self-ignite is always entertaining. And
predictable.

Sixties Gen...

Reading your typically self-absorbed pompous baiting is sad.

Lizz Holmans...

It's these serpents! . I've tried banks, and roots of trees, but these
serpents! There's no pleasing them!

Lizz 'So *don't* read it already' Holmans

Dale Houstman...

You seem to have a taste for bait though, chum...

Lookingglass...

GREAT play there...buddy!

Dale Houstman...

Well you have to let the line play out if you want to catch anything
more than a cold...

Lookingglass...

Heck...I knew you were fishing for compliments here... :^) Gesuntheit!

dave (...I told you 'bout Strawberry Fields...)

;^)

dave (...it took me years to write...)

terra...

I daresay that I saw Dylan with Simon five years ago or so live and I was
looking far more to Paul's set, yet it was Bob who ignited me. Paul was
competent, but, yeah, (sigh) rather emotionless. Bob came out and just
cooked. It was the first time I even noticed he can play lead. The
contrast was pretty clear, so I suppose I have to concede your main point
here.

Lizz 'useful as well as decorative' Holmans

Dale Houstman...

Her remark is amusing. Yours is humorless.

Sixties Gen...

She was trying to be funny...I wasn't.

Lizz Holmans...

Actually, he's got a better diploma than mine, as he's a bachelor of
something and I only have an associate degree in nursing. I'm awfully
afraid I turned out useful rather than poetastic.

Sixties Gen...

Well, utilitarian anyway.

Lizz 'fish sure bite in this creek, don't they?' Holmans

Sixties Gen...

Fish gotta fly...birds gotta swim

Lizz 'We *know* you're clever, sweetie, now show you can feel' Holmans

terra...

Bingo.

Tho truly none of the old artists are achieving what we were spoiled with

Dale Houstman...

Well, that's zeitgeist in part no doubt. But not totally: Neil Young's
work can still be challenging, even when he's happy. And I really loved
Simon's forays into South American and African rhythms. Simon still has
a lot of gusto and talnnt, and he's one of the more truly musical
talents out of that crowd, but the overall vim seems a bit missing. I
don't expect him to keep turning out "Bookends" but the latest work
seems more professional than it is stimulating.

terra...

That's likely a good description. They are journeymen, and so approach
everything in a 'professional' way rather (perhaps) than in the hit or miss
inspiration that gave them an edge in the olde reckless youth.

mcnews...

brian eno produced this one.

terra...

And brian has been around decades as well.

Dale Houstman...

I know, which makes it intriguing, although he still couldn't make me
like U2...

30-40 years ago.

Lookingglass...

...cruising??? I'm 'hurtling'...!!!... but considering the alternative...
;^) Nice to be here.

;^)

dave (...doing the garden, digging the weeds...)

fattuchus...

I am not a Dylan fan so I doubt I would buy it. However, it is getting
rave, rave reviews.

DanKaye...

I will listen to it. I'll give it a shot.

But honestly, I haven't liked Dylan for a long time.

I'm a moderately big Dylan fan. I have half a dozen or so of his older
albums, and his box set. I love his early stuff.

But I am amazed that Rolling Stone and others keep saying how great
his last several albums are. I listened to each one of them once or
twice, maybe 3 times, and then put them away, never to hear them
again. They're boring. They don't have that certain "it" that the
early Dylan had.

He's interesting. I even thought about reading his autobiography. But
musically, he just hasn't been good for many many years. Maybe his
lyrics are good, I don't know. If they are, all I can say is "I don't
get them". Go figure. I "got" "My Back Pages" and "It's Alright Ma"
and so many of his other cryptic lyrics; but I don't get the new ones.
They just don't say anything to me...

I think it's just a case of no one wanting to admit that the Emperor
is naked. Dylan is naked, and what I am seeing isn't very appealing.

Just my own opinion. YMVV.

poisoned rose...

Except it's NOT just your own opinion, because you have expanded it
to declare that other people's opinions are feigned and insincere.
So, that's where you grossly overreach.

poisoned rose...

He's as blind as he can be...just see what he wants to see....

poisoned rose...

He's as blind as he can be...just see what he wants to see....

Meanwhile, SG's true beef with Dylan lies with Dylan failing to
"pound a belief down peoples' throats" about the Vietnam War in an
overt Vietnam-protest song -- which shows just what a charade his
anti-Dylan vendetta is. Always founded on emotion and spurned-lover
wounds rather than any reasoned critical assessment.

teranewsguy...

Not really. The phrase 'mentally and physically weak' was rather all
encompassing and while I was making a point it was done pretty stridently (I
have been known to do that, ask PR).

Anyway, I got where you were coming from and so I undo/retract/withdraw/suck
up backwards/reverse....ah, you know what I mean.

poisoned rose...

Interesting take on the album.

Sixties Gen...

And FWIW, an opinion shared by others, including this writer.

terra...

Yes, we know you are no fan of Dylan. However, as a casual fan I would say
he had 'no clothes' much earlier in his career, he has since worn a rather
snappy barrel. I only heard one song from his new lp so far, it was quite
pleasureable to listen to, as the band is quite good (and Bob does play some
tasty guitar, something he's not really known for). His voice is rather
late Johnny Cash-ish, but it can fit the lyrics he writes. Sounds more like
the old Dylan lyric-wise, but I have to hear more. I don't have any of his
last albums either, tho I know they were feted as being very good. Perhaps
diminished expectations do that (as with Paul ... always hoping the next one
is IT but it never is).

Short answer... No.

Andrew...

I agree, the answer is no.

His music would not stand up to Dylan's, it would stand above it. And
he would not have Dylan's standing in the world today, he would stand
above Dylan's level.

fishandchipp...

Two different men two different styles, both holding their own at the
top, where they belong.

Jeff...

Great reply, Andrew. When has Dylan's albums ever sold as well as the

fattuchus...

No, thank YOU. Good post.

Andrew...

One mo' time!

xavieing...

Ridiculous statement. "The Best of The Eagles" and

sequentially...

I asked a question. See the question Mark?

"Thriller" and many others have sold many, many times the number of
copies that Rubber Soul, for example, has sold.

sequentially...

The Beatles have sold a billion records world wide..and Elvis has sold
that many also.
I'm not talking just about One album, such as
"Rubber Soul." Bob Dylan has never been mentioned as equal to their
sales figures.

=A0>>If you're going to equate record sales to

If you're going to equate record sales to quality music,
you're only painting yourself as a dumbass with little concept of
quality music.

sequentially...

You just wrote about record sales..and quality music, and then comparing
it to me being a dumbass, and then you finish up by saying
quality music. ROFL

You must be Mr. Charlie...the guy who takes everything so seriously? Ok,
go ahead.

Bob Dylan is easily as influential and important as The

sequentially...

I never said he wasn't. I asked the question of
when has Dylan's music ever sold as well as the Beatles? That's all I
asked. Instead of just answering my question...you go into the
influential and important bits.

Beatles. Many would say he's much more important. The proof is in

sequentially...

Even if he was much more important..or much much worse...it doesn't
answer my question. :-)

the pudding, nate.

Beatles?

waltbrad...

Well, the answer is "never". But I don't believe that was the
question.

The question was, if Lennon had lived, would his curren work standup to
Dylan's current work.

I personally do not believe so. Dylan's work is inner directed. Lennon
was to "status oriented"

waltbrad...

I have to stand in the Dylan corner. My reasons for believing that
Lennon wouldn't have been able to make the grade has been discussed
just recently.

Lennon became more and more political: thinking his songs had to be
"relevant". So he was not writing from within himself anymore, and was
trying to reachout for what was 'popular'. In fact, he may have always
been that way. Even "Strawberry Fields" was an effort at reaching out
to the west coast sound.

On the other hand, Dylan gave all that up in August of 1966! Even when
it looked like he was all washed up, Dylan forged ahead and wrote
original stuff anyway.

Where the Beatles were very versed in popular music, Dylan was versed
in traditional/folk and blues music. His branches grew from deeper
roots and that is why he is able to continue on to this day.

This is no slight to the Beatles. I love the music they made. I even
like "Starting Over" and some of the solo McCartney stuff.

You're just talking about two very different artistic backgrounds:
Beatles music was rooted in youth; Dylan's music was rooted in the
past. And past is prologue.

poisoned rose...

Very well-stated.

I'm in the Dylan corner, too.

Lennon's voice was leaving him just like Dylan's voice did, but
Dylan's style of music suits a weak voice much better. And Lennon's
batting average was not so good after 1971, anyway -- I don't think
his career prognosis was all that sparkling. He was already in a
partial rut, as far as being unable to resist those plodding,
Imagine-style piano chords. Meanwhile, I'm just imagining a possible
pattern....

1971: Oh Yoko
1980: Dear Yoko
1984: Hello Yoko
1987: Sweet Yoko
1989: My Yoko
1990: She's Yoko
1991: Me and Yoko
1992: Wassup Yoko?
...

Ugh. ;) Would Lennon ever be able to write another "love song"
which achieved the virtues of transportability and universality? I
just don't know.

You know how Michael Stipe was a real tastemaker for awhile, but
eventually everyone just started rolling their eyes at him for
jumping on every righteous political bandwagon and making a general
nuisance of himself? I think this might have been Lennon's fate, in
the long run. I don't think Lennon could have played this sort of
role as well as, say, Bono. Lennon would be too content to rest on
peace-and-love platitudes and artsy symbolism. Not enough pragmatism.

Haven't heard the new Dylan album yet. Can't wait to get it!

Runnnerr...

That's a really great and detailed analysis. I can see very clearly how
you reached your conclusion. It must have taken you quite a while
(maybe 4 seconds) to have come up it. Your research methods are sound
and the conclusion you've reached follows clearly from them.

"No" sums it all up so well.

Dale Houstman...

Best answer... Who knows?

terra...

Precisely.

camille...

I agree - John would not stand up and for a simple reason that has

fattuchus...

LOL. Yes. And in the nasal category too.

nothing to do with talent. John coould be creatively brilliiant, but
I don't believe he would have had the single-minded dedication that
Dylan has shown. John called himself lazy, and it's a lot of hard

camille...

that> > work, what Dylan continues to do, quite amazing really. He

work, what Dylan continues to do, quite amazing really. He writes
constantly, he tours constantly, he does the radio show, he has his
book.

John was never a strong person, mentally or physically. And I think he
was too changeble a person to go for the long haul.

Jeff...

You don't know what John was, and quality is above quanity. Dylan can
work his ass off
like the Stones..turning out more product, but they'll never be as big
as the Beatles.

camille...

I am a major fan of John's but his music was not so hot after he left
the Beatles. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have had a rennaissance, but
i personally believe he woulnd't have lasted. Simply my opinion based
on his insecurities, etc. I think he would not be the same man he was
back than had he lived. Of course, I don't know this, but if people
are asking hypotheticals, that's my hypothetical response.

fishandchipp...

Unfortunately, he didn't have a long haul

terra...

He was plenty strong much in his life. Very much so. He was also human,
meaning sometimes he was not strong.

Nice blanket generalizing...makes your opinions rather worthless.

camille...

Oh for god's sake, Mr. Big Shot, like you knew Mr. Lennon personally.
Or maybe you have psychically connected with him? Hey, yeah, I bet
that's it!

Get over yourself. It happens to be my opinion. Where you get "blanket
opinion" out of that is YOUR problem, not mine.

Real strong guy that Mr. Lennon. Yeah, right. You convinced me. Now
get a book and read up on his life why don'tcha.

terra...

I've since withdrawn this response of mine, as I see you are not simply
parroting something. The 'blanket' was I find flaw in your opinion based on
who he was in 1970-1980. Then again, the original question was flawed and
there is no real answer.

Sorry about MY blanket generalization on your opinion.

camille...

No offense taken. BTW, how can you withdraw a comment after it is
made?

sequentially...

=A0>>moment. LOL

terra...

Cool. Will there be anymore?

sequentially...

Depends on who you are. Reveal yourself and
come out with your hands up, or I will call
deputy Fife.

dlarsson...

Just what has Dylan really done in the last 20 years?

abe slaney...

Some of the best work of his life? Does that count?

Nothing comparable to 1962-66

Dale Houstman...

Many of us might disagree. I think he's doing his best work ever. And
what would John have "really done" by now? Fantasy scenarios upon
fantasy scenarios...

You make it sound as if Lennon's music would just
disappear? His "standing in music" would never
go away and music like "Grow Old With Me" and
"Beautiful Boy" would have only added to it.

Jeff...

It did add to it.

Dale Houstman...

I think "Grow Old With Me" is pure corn. "Beautiful Boy" is a very good
song. Neither stands up to Dylan's best, and it is only conjecture to
think John could have produced albums as powerful as Dylan's latest.
Personally, I doubt it. After POB, John seemed unable to create albums
that were not a mixture of half-baked ideas and listenable songs that
were often still disappointing, considering his earlier accomplishments.
John was great, but he seemed (like Paul) to really need a strong
partner to bounce off to create superior work most of the time. Dylan is
a solo artist who is still making powerful statements. There is no
comparison.

fattuchus...

Ironically, if John had to, he could do a convincing and wicked Dylan

teranewsguy...

OK, you got me there. I withdraw the intent?

imitation. (listen to the samples on Lennon Anthology)

Has Dylan ever imitated John? Not that I know of. He couldn't touch
him.

With John we would get a John Lennon and Dylan sound alike in one.

With Dylan, we would get, just Dylan.

I vote for John. He could out Dylan Dylan. LOL

Dale Houstman...

A minor point, as you seem to realize. It might even be construed to
mean (although it doesn't) that Lennon was a mimic and Dylan a total
original. At any rate, it's irrelevant to the discussion, which is
irrelevant to reality.

Also, Dylan DID do a sort of Lennon take, with the song "4th Time
Around." Not a vocal parody, but a similar melody and a similar story of
a cold boho relationship. John's is the superior song in this instance.
But Dylan's "bread and butter" isn't parody, and his interest in
contemporary music is trumped by his encyclopedic knowledge of Americana.