Do you like The Turtles?

They had a nice sound but their problem was that the lead singer was a
weird-looking fat dude and that didn't help during that period.

Sean Carroll...

I always thought he looked cool. Weird, but cool. Weird was accepted
back then. Brian Wilson warn't exactly no anorexic, either. ;P

I like all the Turtles songs I know (Happy Together, You Baby, Elenore
G), but I really only know a couple of them. Haven't heard the rest of
their catalog. What do you think of their other songs? Any I should
specifically listen to?

godismycodependent...

Listen to The Battle of the Bands. It's my favorite Turtles song.
Written by Harry Nilsson.

Danny Caccavo...

A "best of" will cover it.

Other than the ones you mentioned, I'm particularly fond of "She's My
Girl" and "You Showed Me"

robotiser...

The lead singer wasn't just "weird looking", he was weird all over. In
a good-ish way though they went too far sometimes. After The Turtles
Howard Kaylan and Mark Volman became the lead singers in Frank Zappa's
band, renaming themselves "The Phlorescent Leech and Eddie". After
singing mini rock operas about mountains married to trees that get into
a strop when they get drafted, they went solo, continuing the Zappa
style for a few years. For example describing the "George Harrison
dildo" on a (if I remember correctly) 1975 live album.

Jeff...

You can speak for that period? Okay.:-) Anyhow, His singing was very
good, and his fat
was in proportion to the rest of him unlike myself. My belly is
showing. LOL

Sixties Gen...

I absolutely adore The Turtles...love all their songs, especially
"Elenore", "Happy Together", "You Know What I Mean" and "You Baby", but
also more obscure songs, like "Lady-O", "Love In The City", "Outside
Chance", and "Grim Reaper Of Love".

IMHO, the best American pop group of the 1960s...even better than the
Byrds, Spoonful, and Rascals(who all come in a close second for me).

Danny Caccavo...

Ooh, I'd have to put the Spoonful way above The Turtles. Granted, the
Turtles have a handful of great songs, but the Spoonful had a lot more
than that, IMHO. Plus, the Spoonful were a lot more "original" to my
ears.

But those handful of Turtles songs are just wonderful....

Rascals were also great.

The real test is how a "Greatest hits" compilation plays. The Lovin
Spoonful has both of them beat on that front.

The Byrds were great, but other than the major hits, I'm not well-versed
on them.

Dale Houstman...

All a matter of taste of course, and no problem there, but...

I like the Turtles, thought they always seemed to be having a goof on
the entire idea of a rock band (Zappa obviously saw this satiric quality
in their work), but - as a musical unit - I really don't think they
measure up to the ones you mentioned in any real way. The Byrds were far
more inventive - instrumentally, lyrically, and vocally - the Spoonful
often as much poppy fun but with a better sense of musicality, and the
Rascals simply were funkier and more "muscular" by a good three or four
football fields worth. Also, the Turtles never really produced one
memorable full album, but remained an occasional singles band. In that
set, I would place Creedence ahead of them. But they were sunny and
light and full of joyful energy. Not a bad thing...

Sixties Gen...

They were pure Pop with wonderful harmonies, and some scmaltzy
orchestration that other bands could never get away with, but I
basically agree with you on your characterizations of the Lovin'
Spoonful, Rascals, and Byrds. The Byrds were a bit more "serious",
perhaps of their folk influence, and tackling Dylan songs. Of course,
the Spoonful also had a folk influence. I remember when "Do You
Believe In Magic" came out, the trade papers and teen mags labeled them
as part of a "Good Time Rock" movement. Kind of silly in retrospect. I
like all of their songs, but have a yen for more obscure ones, like
"Six O'Clock" and "She's A Mystery".

The Rascals were definitely more "muscular". I practically wore out
the grooves of their first album during the Fall of 1965/Winter of
1966..."Ain't Gonna Eat My Heart Out", "Midnight Hour". I liked a lot
of their later stuff too..."See"..."It's Wonderful".

sometimes I'll do a CD shuffle with The Turtles and Spoonful's
greatest. Quite an enjoyable couple of hours.

Dale Houstman...

It would be!

I suppose - if I force myself to place these guys in some sort of
personal hierarchy of admiration - it would be The Byrds, The Rascals,
The Spoonful, and The Turtles, although it strikes me as silly and
irrelevant as I do it. The Rascals' stuff is still incredible in its
energy and (usually) "sunniness" with a load of 60s freedom and peace
messages made less nostalgic by their powerful delivery. I caught Felix
solo on some fairly recent PBS presentation; just him, and interviewer,
and a piano. He still came across as quite marfelous, and he still
retained much of the 60s idealism. It was quite an enjoyable
presentation. I didn't much appreciate the Spoonful at the time - it
struck me as a bit too silly and happy-dappy, and so I probably missed
their musical qualities. Also - although it is now very old news - Yaz
was caught up in being a snitch for the cops on a pot case, and he went
back to Canada. Didn't sit well with many of us. A non-musical event for
sure, but listening doesn't happen in a vacuum, and especially not in
those heady days, when music and politics were so heavily intertwined.

Sixties Gen...

"Yaz"?

Are you thinking about the guy who played for the Red Sox? ;-)

Dale Houstman...

I got the nickname wrong. Must be the pot...

Ehtue...

You're forgiven.

-Ehtue

(Zal wasn't)

Dale Houstman...

Well - hardly my fault...

But I only used pot; I didn't turn in a friend for selling it.

We always called him Zallie...neway, I have no recollection of the pot
case. I always thought he left the group over musical differences.
However, since reading your post, I did look up some links about
Zallie, and it confirms what you said. How did miss that when it
happened...after all I was a happening kind of guy. ;-)

I have probably posted this before, but at the height of the Spoonful's
popularity, circa 1966, a girl I liked told me I looked like Zal...so
it went to my head, and I began to sport red granny glasses like he and
Sebastian wore.

Danny Caccavo...

Yeah, I think Tom Hartman sported a Zallie haircut....right Tom? .

I was always told in the '70s that I looked like John Sebastian....

Dale Houstman...

...and now they tell you that you look like Gabe Kaplan!

Danny Caccavo...

Nice!

Dale Houstman...

This might become a new gauge for determining the onset of age: a simple
battery of visual tests to ascertain precisely where one stands on the
"Sebastian/Kaplan" continuum. If you're closer to the "Sebastian" pole,
you are given a harmonica and instructed to compose a sit-com theme
song. If closer to the "Kaplan" pole, you are given a deck of cards and
directed toward the Bellagio.

Sixties Gen...

Whatever happened to Kaplan?

Is he still hanging out with the Sweat Hogs?

fishandchips...

I got a problem.............I'm closer to the North Pole

Dale Houstman...

Then...are you Santa Claus, an elf, or just a filthy, flea-bitten reindeer?

Ehtue...

What if you're closer to the Trotsky pole?

BlackMonk...

Without checking the dates, I suspect that at the time of the series,
Sebastian was older than the character that Kaplan played, who would have
been in his late 20s/early 30s.

Of course, on that series, the age of the characters and the ages of the

Dale Houstman...

Then you need a restraining order.

actors who played there were two different things. I wouldn't be surprised
if some of the actors who played students were older than Kaplan.

The Byrds - in this grouping - seem in a class of their own, and they
could be silly or just funny when they wanted to be, with such fare as
"Mr. Spaceman," and (a bit more satircially) "So You Want To Be A Rock
and Roll Star" but they also had a pretty wide range of approaches,
which included elememts of folk, rock, jazz and country, all beautifully
supported by Crosby's magical sense of harmony.

But seriousness is only one apsect of music, and now always the most
important. The Turtles always sounded like fun to me, and I wasn't
expecting "big statements" (either political or musical) from them. They
usually delivered what I expected from them. It's a good thing...

Bernie Woodham...

Not that they wanted it that way. They wanted to be taken "seriously".

DC...

By the time they got to the Flo and Eddie stage, they had to have given
up that goal.

Dale Houstman...

That's difficult to say. Maybe when they first started - before they
realized that their record company wanted something else - but it seems
obvious to my ears that they adjusted that plan and began producing
poppy lightweight tunes with a decided "smirk" to them.

Danny Caccavo...

Do you remember "Jungle Walk" by The Rascals? On their
not-very-well-known album "Island of Real" if I recall...

Joe B...

"Elenore" was written as a lark to satisfy the record company, they
wanted another "Happy Together". The lyrics are silly, even by 60's
standards.

"I really think you're Groovy,
Let's Go out to a Movie."

"Gee, I think your swell
and I really do feel well
Your my pride and joy, etc."

Of course, it was a wonderful record and a big hit.

TAR...

Yes, they purposely set out to make it silly. I think I also heard that
they were surprised when it took off and became a hit.

- Donna

Their first big hit was Dylan's "It Ain't Me, Babe" which followed in
the footsteps of "Mr. Tambourine Man" to near the top of the pop
charts. "You, Baby" was the follow-up and one of my favorite pop
singles. Was anyone else on White Whale records?

Bernie Woodham...

Warren Zevon.

poisoned rose...

I have a White Whale seven-inch by the Clique, which includes the
song "Superman" later made more famous by R.E.M.

Oddly, there seems to be an entirely different "White Whale" label
today? http://www.whitewhale.ca

terra...

Rene and rene (Lo Mucho...)

LidsvilleNine...

Howard Kaylan (the skinny one) is the lead singer. Mark Volman (the fat
one) sings some leads and does most of the funny narrations, etc.

Rocky Racoon...

You know, I've never thought of either of them as "skinny".

fishandchippieschippandfish...

made a nice soup, though

Dale Houstman...

Yeah - Mama Cass was an utter failure. Actually, this "visual" problem
was a much smaller concern "during that period" and the Turtles had
several good hits despite the "weird-looking fat dude". This is more
difficult today - with the saturation of videos - and we have a
generation of belly-aching pretty boys and cocktail dress models.

TAR...

Sometimes I agree with you, Dale, and this is definitely one of those
times. For instance, someone like Janis Joplin would have probably
never made it today. It's not as much about the music anymore.

terra...

Yeah, as kids it was fine for some of the band members to look like
older brothers and sister, more relatable. Much of the flash came later
on.

BlackMonk...

Image was always important. The difference is that in the sixties, being
weird looking or even ugly sometimes WAS the image. As for The Mamas and
the Papas, Michelle's looks had a lot to do with their success.

Dale Houstman...

That didn't hurt, although she struck me as rather cold. But I think
most people fell in love with their sound before they ever saw them.
Their sound was very exuberant and vocally complex, with some very real
musical qualities.

Lizz Holmans...

Mainly that was because Michelle didn't actually do any singing, at
least not on any of the records. It's all Cass and she had one of the
best vocal instruments in music at the time.

BlackMonk...

Um, where do you get that from? Michelle does a lot of singing on the
records, even some lead vocals.

Lizz Holmans...

I did a whole *lot* of listening. I hardly hear Michelle at all; in
fact, her voice is almost unrecognizable. In her autobiography she
said 'John taught me to sing harmony.' Well, all the harmony I ever
heard was Cass. Except maybe the introduction to 'To the One I Love',
her voice made so little impact that I'm not sure I'd even recognize a
solo from her.

terra...

She apparently -was- part of the vocal mix and did indeed sing on the
records. On one of their anthology sets there is a studio chat intro
into Once Was A Time I Thought (which was acapella save a small bit of
accompanying guitar. It concerns her vocalizing as they rehearsed. And
while she did less than the others, and maybe she simply wasn't that good
and hence mixed way down, Cass' vox was so powerful and Michelle's so
slight that it would be very heard to hear much of anything. Michie was
likely a big part of the sound, albeit as a background wsh/fill in the
b/g vocals.

DC...

Yeah. I mean, they were a group before Cass joined, and before they were
signed. She obviously sang.

She carried no burden. She was there because she was pretty. If she
hadn't been John Phillips's sweetie she wouldn't even have been in the
group. And her later solo career--has she ever done anything musical

Jeff...

Sean, the rest of their catalog is very good. I had no idea until
2000...that the Turtles recorded all of this great music.

Sixties Gen...

I'm not sure if you get Turner Classic Movies (TCM) on the other side
of the pond, but tomorrow at 8:00 PM (Eastern Standard Time) is "The

R.A.G. Seely...

Can there be anyone who doesn't have the boxed set of all the
Thin Man movies? Trivia: the titles of those films moved from
the term "thin man" refering to someone other than Nick to the
term obviously refering to him. A case of giving into the
"popular" (even if erroneous) view.

Thin Man".

Lizz Holmans...

Ectually, we do get TCM, but I have no idea if they show the same
schedule. I'll check, but 2000 EST is 0100 the next day Over Here, so
I dunno.

Lizz 'Fat Woman in the Bath tub with the blues' Holmans

since?

R.A.G. Seely...

Well, she was on Star Trek once ...

Ehtue...

Really? Which Star Trek? And which episode? The musical ep?

Ehtue...

Aha. Thanks. I'll try to catch that next time around (they seem to always
be playing).

BlackMonk...

She has one solo album, and maybe a few singles. I don't have any problem
recognizing her, her voice is higher and thinner than Cass'. If you have
"The Papas and The Mamas," she does the Shirley Temple track that introduces
both sides.

She also wrote the lyrics for several songs, but she's no Mike Love.

DC...

And for that, we can be thankful.

BlackMonk...

Don't include me in that "we." I like the Beach Boys.

DC...

Me too.

That's not to say she was exceptional as either a vocalist or a lyricist
(unlike Love, who did both jobs well at times. Not always the same time,
unfortunately).

Agreed about the quality of Cass's vocals, though.

TAR...

Yep. A lead pipe to the head can do wonders.

- Donna

Lizz Holmans...

Well, yeah. That's a gimme.

Lizz 'Wish I had her voice and not her waistline' Holmans

DayTripper1966...

She sang parts on Dedicated to the One I Love, No Salt on Her Tail, My
Heart Stood Still, and countless co-vocals with Cass.

Lizz 'sometimes Queen is right' Holmans

Danny Caccavo...

Michelle didn't do any of the lead singing, but she was on those
records. Actually, she did do that intro to "This is Dedicated To The
One I Love" come to think of it.

But Cass was the "sound"

BlackMonk...

I'd say Cass and Denny. Think about Denny's solo parts on California
Dreamin'.

I found this list of who sang lead on what, though I don't know how accurate
it is.

Talking about who did the leads is deceptive with the Mamas and Papas. Like
The Beach Boys, they traded off the lead during songs and the vocals
arrangements were just as important as the lead vocals.

My favorite song by them is "For The Love of Ivy," which they all
contributed to.