Clicker training?

Based on Sandy's response in another thread (thanks, Sandy!), I have
been doing some web research on clicker training. Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it? It's simple, positive, maybe even fun,

Janet B...

There's no harm in it at all, but it's not necessarily everyone's
preferred method for a number of reasons. Testimonials, to ANYTHING,
tend to be a little over the top gushy IMO. Doesn't matter what the
product it!

Suja...

Dogs, being individuals, don't exactly all respond equally well to all types
of training. I have tried clicker training, and found it to be frustrating.
More importantly, my dog was confused by it.

Robin Nuttall...

I'm curious. Did you try it on your own? Or with the help of someone who
was an experienced clicker trainer?

Suja...

No, it was in our intermediate obedience class. Khan understood the whole

Robin Nuttall...

See, to me, that overexcitement is exactly what I want to see. I can
deal with and focus that, helping the dog cap and control the
excitement/drive, which results in a much faster, more intense performance.

For many trainers (not saying this directly to you, just using this as a
springboard), an excited dog is scary and to be avoided at all costs.

montana wildhack...

Maybe we're using the word excited differently. If we got
excited/focused, great. What we get is excited, focused on treats.

Sandy in OK...

Ah, that's what "food zen" is for! I do add the qualification for my
students that looking at food doesn't work. Looking at the appropriate
human does. Also, in my class it's not a cued behavior. You shut up and
let the dog figure it out.

montana wildhack...

Very good link. We use those techniques, but not with the clicker. I
guess I feel that we're comfortable using other sound markers that
simply aren't the clicker and feel that getting treats is not always
necessary. It's very necessary for some things, like teaching leaving
food on the floor alone, but not everything. And if that's working,
great. Clickers are great tools.

Neo is learning a lot of house rules, or at least is willing to go
along with them. I don't think she had to work for treats before, but
she's down with that program, now. I know that nobody ever enforced
rules before. We're going slowly.

Other noises or techniques don't elicit the same response.

shore...

Mushing 101! "We are not budging from this spot until you
quiet down and focus." I'm not sure why but a lot of people
don't seem to recognize waiting the dog out as a training
tool. I think pretty much anybody can outstubborn a dog but
not everybody is willing to.

montana wildhack...

Our "clicker problem," more than anything else, is with the treats.
We'd have to wait forever for dogs to settle down, but when we work
with sound markers and no treats, it's a different story.

So we dropped the clicker and the treats for other sound marking methods.

Robin Nuttall...

Let's take excited and make it arousal. Cala is by far the most easily
aroused dog I've ever owned. She's been called "highest drive dog I've
ever seen" by several top (World team) agility trainers and schutzhund
trainers. Her arousal quickly flips into limbic/lizard brain. This is a
dog who was still barking/yelping in excitement on each pole on her 3rd
run in the 60-weaves on a day that was over 100 degrees. She can get so
over the top that she loses all semblance of control. I have to be very
careful with her because she will go so into overdrive/limbic that she
can't be reached or reasoned with.

I believe I know what it's like to work with and channel a dog who has
extreme reactions to stimuli.

For me, the solution to Cala is not to lower the stimuli. Instead, it's
to help her learn to channel and focus that extreme arousal in a
productive direction. That means that yep, I work her with her very
highest stimulus toy. I build her up right to the edge of limbic/loss of
control, then help her ride that edge and use it productively. I feel
this is far more important than mere sport performance, it's giving her
a skill she desperately needs--to be able to rate herself.

When Cala was a puppy I could not work her in formal classes. In
private, our sessions were 10-15 minutes max--that's all she could do.
She'd flip into limbic, go out of control, then exhaust herself. This
dog can now do a full schutzhund obedience routine and has 2 Rally
Advanced legs with a first and 3rd place.

Cala is 4 1/2 years old now, and this has been a long journey. It's a
neverending one. Would I trade it? No, not for anything. When I do get
that control, the payoff in intensity and focus of work is astounding.

It's a lot easier to deal with a shut down or near shut down dog when
training for obedience type exercises than with a wildly excited one.
Where some trainers see "wild," I see true potential.

click/treat thing, and we worked him on stuff he knew first. The problem
with him was that he is very into not rocking the boat, and it was difficult
to get him to progress. If something got him c/t, he'd repeat it endlessly,
but wouldn't progress if it was no longer being rewarded. He would default
to stuff he knows, and when that doesn't work, would 'woo-woo' and leave.
It is possible that I should've been looking for even smaller signs of
progress than I was, but it was just so much easier to continue to do what
was working just fine. I remember that it took 3x 5 minute sessions to
teach him something just by luring that I couldn't get done in a week with a
clicker because he wouldn't go past step 1.

My timing is pretty good, so I didn't find it particularly useful to use the
clicker as a reward marker. Khan is very much a 'Just tell me what you want

Robin Nuttall...

The clicker isn't really a reward marker. It's an EVENT marker. It does

Suja...

Poor choice of words on my part.

not take the place of praise, nor is it a reward in itself. It simply
marks a moment you want to capture, and means "you did right, reward is
coming." It's sort of a fine difference, but to me it's an important one.

jdege...

The click marks the event, but you have to condition an association
between the click and the coming reward in the dog, in order for it to
work.

The click creates a link between the event and the reward. So calling
it a reward marker isn't inappropriate.

Robin Nuttall...

It's a marker that means a reward is coming. Like I say, it's a
distinction WITH a difference, as many people think it's exactly the
same to simply substitute the reward/praise. It's not.

Clickers are secondary reinforcers. Food/toy/praise/play are primaries.
The secondary elicits the primary.

Rocky...

I use a vocal event marker (a quick "yes") in agility - training
and in trials.

Khan is very much a 'Just tell me what you want

me to do' kind of dog, and neither of us has the kind of patience it
required to shape behaviors, which is where the power of clicker comes in.

Robin Nuttall...

Acutally I rarely use it to shape behaviors, but rather to mark the
moment when the dog is doing what I want. It doesn't have to be used

Suja...

I find it easier (and handier) to just use praise/treat.

ONLY to shape behaviors, and can be a very powerful tool even without
shaping.

I have used it with Pan, and it can be fun and interesting. Standard lure
training works just fine for both dogs, so that's what I've stuck with.

A friend of mine has a dog who really took to the clicker. Once he got the
concept that he might get rewarded for throwing behaviors, he became
obsessed by it, and was *constantly* trying something to get a reward (with
or without a clicker around). She had to stop working with him and using a
clicker entirely for a while to get him back on an even keel. That was
probably the most bizarre reaction I've seen to clicker training.

Robin Nuttall...

It sounds to me like your friend did something a bit wrong. Dogs
continually throwing behaviors in the hope of getting a click really
aren't being successfully clicker trained. A successful clicker trainer,

Suja...

I honestly don't know how it all went down. I know that she started off
using it to capture behavior, and eventually worked on shaping stuff. From
there, it somehow got to the point where he was randomly throwing stuff
(with or without clicker) constantly. I know that she responded to his
obsession quickly, but it took a loooong time before he'd stop. He has some
OCD behavior (like shadow chasing), and this somehow seems to have fed into
that, I think.

even when shaping, helps the dog move toward and end behavior rather
than just continuing to throw random stuff at the handler. If the
clicker is being used properly, that sort of behavior isn't rewarded so
it tends to not last long.

People tend to harp that clicking requires good timing. Well all dog
training requires good timing. Clicker requires the ability to read and
understand your dog--and *that* can take some practice.

Me, I tend to use click/treat for more stationary behaviors and
obedience type finesse moves such as fronts, straight finishes,
backwards heeling, etc. I use toys and tug for in motion behaviors like
jumping and weaving. I find it a fun and powerful tool, but it's not the
only one in my toolbox.

and I don't see any downside. I'm on my way to Barnes & Noble now to

Janet B...

I'm not convinced about that simple part. I've encountered a number
of people doing weird things in the name of clicker training, and even
clicker trainers don't always agree on the fine points! I know some
pretty skilled trainers who don't like clicker training because they
find it cumbersome. Obviously, a lot of others like it. It's a
personal choice. Not right or wrong, just a choice.

Julia Altshuler...

I'm one of the people who would happily do a testimonial for clicker
training. I learned about it on this list ages ago, tried it with my
dog and have been having a blast with it ever since. (Well, a few
problems getting starting, but basically a good experience all around.)

The downside is that it isn't the right method for all dogs, and there's
a great deal of confusion about using clicker training exclusively. At
this point, I wouldn't know how to characterize the way we train Cubbe.
We certainly do use clicker training, but we use other methods as the
occasion arises.

Also, clicker training is especially well suited for people who want a
nice house pet, one that does a few tricks, maybe agility. It is not
necessarily the best for herding, tracking, retrieving, and other more
serious dog jobs.

Sandy in OK...

I'm not sure if "obedience" counts as a serious dog job. But Alice
learned all her obedience skills (including a retrieve - very quickly)
with a clicker. Currently we are at 2 CDX legs in ASCA, 1 in AKC and
two rally advanced legs. Now, in herding we didn't use a clicker. In
that venue the only real "reward" is being able to work the stock, and
her behaviors come too fast and furious for me to click (my timing is
pretty good, but not that good). BroomSandy

Robin Nuttall...

I think there are a few dog jobs that clicker training doesn't work well
for. Herding is one. Tracking is another. Imagine our despair when a
local mis-clicker trainer was trying to get her dog to track. Every time
he lowered his nose to the track, she would click him--and he would
raise his head up to get the treat. He never did certify in tracking,
much less get his title. In tracking, the dog needs to interact with the
scent. Treats should come from within the scent pool. You could click
for finding the article, then treat, but other than that I wouldn't use
it in that situation.

Clickers work well with more human-shaped endeavors like agility and

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory...

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Robin Nuttall...

I use that too sometimes, but it's important to understand that they are
not the same. The "yes" is praise. The clicker is not praise, it's an

Rocky...

How is "yes" praise? It's a consistent, quick sound. I use it
as a marker.

Robin Nuttall...

If you ever use the word as praise outside clicker training, then it's
really praise inside clicker too. :)

shore...

I think intonation, pitch, etc. enter into it as much as the
shape of the syllable. I'm unconvinced that there's much
potential for confusion. I'm also unconvinced that dogs
don't understand context, which is part of it. For example,

Rocky...

Yess.

A friend counsels to not use "OK" as a release word because it's
used as part of one's regular day to day conversation. The day
my dogs release from a down because I tell the pizza delivery
guy that the order is OK is the day I start training in
Mandarin.

Sandy in OK...

When I have my students start using a word marker (we start weaning off
the clicker as soon as the behavior is solidly "named") I suggest a
word that isn't used as much as Yes! Good! or Okay! Some of our
suggestions are Neat! Great! Cool! Bueno! (for non-Spanish speakers)

Rocky...

I like a short one-syllable word which doesn't end in a vowel,
sort of an attempt to make it as click-like as possible. "Yes"
(no emphasis) works well for me.

Mine is EXcellent! (which sort of comes from Bridge and Target, but I
like it) Sandy in OK

diddy...

Sandy, have you read the Syn Alias Series on behavior bridge and target
training? It sounds as if you are using EXcellent as a bridge.

if I say Crow's name when I'm in the dining room the only
one who responds is Crow. If I say Crow's name when I'm in
the part of the kitchen where I store the biscuits,
everybody responds. I've done some other experimentation
and granted that it's not particularly methodologically
sound and I haven't been particularly rigorous (ahem) about
documenting the results, but I'm not sold on the word re-use
problem.

If nothing else, dogs speak a tonal language themselves.

Rocky...

I understand event markers well enough to have considered that.
I chose "yes" as a marker word because I don't use it with them
on a normal basis and it comes out of my mouth easily as a sharp
short word.

Same thing with "OK" - it's my release word and that's the only
time I use it with my dogs.

event marker.

Janet B...

Only if used as such. Words are just words, noises are just noises.
How one chooses to use either, defines their meaning.

The reason why voice is less effective than a click, light flash, or
other totally neutral mark is because our voice inflection always
changes. The "yes" we say at the end of a long, frustrating session
where we're just trying to salvage something positive is very different
than the "yes" we say when the dog nails that weave entry from a
difficult angle the very first time at speed.

Also, there's some scientific data (and I can't remember the cite,
sorry) that the click is actually faster than voice. It takes less time
for the brain to send an impulse to the finger than it does for the
brain to process a signal and turn it into words. So clicking actually
improves timing.

Sandy in OK...

Is this the article you're thinking of?

Robin Nuttall...

I don't think so, but that one is great! Thanks.

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory...

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.

obedience.

Sandy in OK...

I agree. How can one click "tracking" when one can't know exactly what
the dog is smelling and thinking? Also, the natural understanding
(unless you train the dog otherwise) is that "click ends the behavior."
Suzanne C zinged me for wanting to click scent articles for the same
reason and I think she has a point. Same concept with herding. My good
instinctive dog knows a lot more than I do, and on stock a cookie
simply isn't a reinforcer. Stopping work to come get a cookie is out of
the question. George Costa uses a clicker sometimes to teach ground
work (skills off stock) and to mark correct position, but not in the
traditional clicker useage.
Turid Rugaas thinks one shouldn't click calming signals because it is
natural response and you don't know exactly what the dog is feeling,
but at this point I'm still not in agreement on that one - I've just
found it to be too incredibly successful and powerful. And I know other
people who also agree with its power (Pryor and Aloff). Calming signals
are a "tell" about how the dog is feeling. Keeping the dog at that
level of arousal is useful and Brenda Aloff believes that certain
signals (like a flick of the tongue) can be a signal that the dog is
moving out of limbic.
There are many times when the reward is in sight for the dog, and I
don't click, because it's not necessary information. I use the clicker
a lot with my students even in situations where it is not essential
information because in addition to the fact that dogs "get it", it
gives my students new skills. They learn to observe their dogs in a new
way. And instead of trying to fix their old, really lousy verbal
communication skills, I can give them something completely new to use -
with a tool with which they haven't had a chance to develop bad habits
yet! Broom Sandy

I'd advise that you do follow your plan to get some books and research
clicker training and give it a try. Just make sure that you pay strict
attention to Ozzie; watch her for signs of "getting screwed up." Ask
questions when you have them.

check out some training books and plan to try it, but before I do, is
there anything I should know? Is this going to be yet another way for
me to screw up poor Ozzie?

Sandy in OK...

I suspect it would be great for Ozzie. My suggestion would be
started" to uh, get you started!

Jeff Dege...

Some dogs don't like the noise.

No big deal. Use some other noise.

The crux of the training is using a positive reinforcement marker, not
using the little plastic toy.

Sandy in OK...

and, i-clicks can be made verrrry quiet! BroomSandy

Janet B...

Poor timing, in any method, can screw up the dog. In person training
is really a good idea, regardless of method chosen. Doing the work is
an important factor as well, and an instructor generally has a well
thought out lesson plan, that teaches things at a certain pace and in
a certain order, which has proven successful.

Good luck with whatever you choose, and your dog will be better off
for it!