Animal emotions

Animals do not feel "disappointment". They don't have

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

That's SHEER IDIOCY, leif <{) : ~ ( >

Leif Erikson...

No, it isn't. Animals just don't have the ability for it.

an emotional state of "hopefulness", so they can't

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Of curse they do.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard JUST DID end the thread, fred.

HOWE COME you SNIPPED the EVIDENCE, fred?

HOWE COME you snipped the kat group?

HOWE COME you ain't got nuthin to say that'll
contribute to the INFORMATION, fred?

Might THAT be on accHOWENT of you're a SIMPLETON?

Leif Erikson...

No, they don't.

experience "disappointment". If a mountain lion

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

That's ABSURD. What are you, some kinda Nazi?

Leif Erikson...

It's not absurd. What does your question have to do
with any of it? It sounds like just an attempt to be
insulting.

doesn't catch the deer, it doesn't mope or do
*anything* that would indicate "disappointment". It

dh...

How could you know, Goo?

just starts hunting again.

Bette...

Have you read, "The Dog That Loves Too Much?" by Dr. Dodman.
It is a great insight into behavior modification.

There are so many on the market. This I value and share with my
clients.
Bette

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Don't bet your life on it, leif.

Leif Erikson...

Guaranteed, wiz.

If you tell your dog you're going to take it out for a
walk, and actually get the leash out and the dog gets

Jack Crenshaw...

Who could? It is gibberish.

excited, but then you sit down and drink a beer and
watch the ballgame instead, the dog is not
"disappointed". It may appear a little confused,

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Of curse not. Dogs are VERY patient, leif. He knows

Leif Erikson...

No, that's not why, wiz. It's because they don't have
the sense of anticipation required to have a sense of
disappointment.

you'll get to it bye an bye, leif. Perhaps he'll remind
you to take him for the walk later.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

You mean, on accHOWENT of you broke your word?

Leif Erikson...

No, that's not it. They don't have a sense of "giving
one's word". They don't understand anything about
that. It's just not a feature of their reality.

because the usual outcome (of actually going for the
walk) did not follow the auditory signal "walk" or the
visual/auditory signal of "pick up leash", but it

dh...

How could that confuse it Goober?

doesn't feel "sad" or "disappointed". In a matter of

dh...

What prevents it from feeling that too, Goo?

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

You mean no more than if you offered him a cookie
and then forgot, leif?

Leif Erikson...

Yeah, that would be about right, wiz.

Leif Erikson...

He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate.

Glorfindel...

...

Leif Erikson...

All of these are merely stimulus/response. They aren't
anticipation. You can anticipate the next occurrence
of Christmas, or payday, or some other event that
doesn't require a signal from someone else in order for
you to think about it. Your dog can't do that, nor can
any other non-human animal.

TaraG...

That is not only a mischaracterization of the animals response, its also a
serious mischaracterization of our own anticipatory responses. We rely on
stimuli as well.

Glorfindel...

Also, animals in general, and dogs in particular, will respond before
any specific stimuli have been provided, if there is a routine in
their life. For example, my own dog knows that we generally go to bed
around a certain time. Even if we have something which keeps us from
giving the usual going-to-bed signals, like drawing the bath water,

Leif Erikson...

There are numerous others.

the dog will go into the bedroom and lie down in his usual place at
the right time. The humans may still be doing not-going-to-bed things
like reading, working on the computer, or watching TV, but the dog
clearly anticipates that they *ought* to be going to bed around this
time.

Glorfindel...

The interesting thing is that it is the only time the dog goes
into the bedroom to sleep. The rest of the day, he sleeps on
the couch, in the office, on his rug on the patio, but never in
the bedroom. He anticipates that the humans will follow a
routine.

Leif Erikson...

No. The dog has a set of Circadian rhythms, too.

dh...

Yes Goo. You just can't understand how that could happen.

There is no "anticipation"; the dog just realizes it's
sleep time.

Recent studies which show that some animals can practice deceptive
behaviors to fool conspecifics also show that the animals can
anticipate that if they provide certain stimuli, their fellows
will probably respond in a certain way. So they learn to provide

Leif Erikson...

This is not "anticipation".

Glorfindel...

How are you defining the word?

Eden...

The conscious state that an entity expects something to
occur in an indefinite future, with or without - but
mostly without - some triggering signal. When a

Glorfindel...

....

Ron...

*That* is Goober's modus operendi..............then he runs away for a
while.

Glorfindel...

....

Glorfindel...

That certainly appears to be true of many species of animals,
especially social species.

It's interesting to watch animals turn signals around and
try to train their guardians, in a way which shows they
understand an if/then correlation in the future. For
example, a dog who has learned that "Sit" will gain a
treat, may also use "sit" to influence the guardian to
do something else. It becomes a form of "please" or "I
want this" even if no treat is anywhere in sight, and the
thing the dog wants has nothing to do with food -- for

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

HERE'S WHAT ENDS THE THREAD, fred:

HOWEDY leif,

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

That's SHEER IDIOCY, leif <{) : ~ ( >

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Of curse they do.

example, to be let out on the patio to bark at a passing cat.
I see that as a simple form of symbolic communication.

Glorfindel...

.....

Glorfindel...

.....

That's not the definition you gave earlier, nor do I think it

Glorfindel...

No, it is not. You cannot claim something is "implied" in a definition
if you do not state it specifically.

...

applies in many cases with humans anticipating something.
Why should anticipation require *symbolic* communication?

Anticipation requires the ability to extrapolate from a past
event to a probable future event. You've agreed a signal

Glorfindel...

....

Certainly it does. In the case of your own example, you would need
a past event to connect the words "ice cream" with the physical
object, ice cream. I could say, "I'm taking you out for some
feeblefetzer," but there would be no anticipation involved if
you did not know what feeblefetzer was, or if I said the sentence in
a language you did not know. Similarly, without a past event as a
referent, anyone, human or animal, would not know how to respond
to a signal, verbal or non-verbal -- the signal would simply
be meaningless.

of some kind may be involved, but need not be. One example
would be where a dog has learned that his guardian usually
comes home at a certain time each day. Many dogs will start
expecting the person at about the same time each day, even
if no direct signal (such as the sound of the car engine)
is given. I think you could say the same of a pack of
wolves who respond to signals, such as physical movements
and sounds, with the anticipation that a hunt will take place.

child's father says he will take the child some place
"next weekend", this conveys symbolic information that
animals cannot grasp. If the child is old enough to

Glorfindel...

That says that the only possible signal is verbal. That
is much too limited a definition of information.

understand "next weekend", the child anticipates the
event between the statement and the weekend, without
any additional signals. No animal can do that.

false stimuli. This must demonstrate a very complex and
sophisticated form of anticipation. They not only can anticipate that
"If I do *this* the other animal will do *that*" but "if I do *this*
the other animal will respond in *this* way, so I will fool him/her
by providing stimuli which will make him do something else instead."
It's a double layer of anticipation, and cannot be instinctive.

Leif Erikson...

You're not qualified to say. You have no expertise.

Glorfindel...

You have no more than I, and probably less.

Eden...

You have NONE, but you are pretending to speak
authoritatively. You have read some stuff you like;
that's all.

Anyway, these studies are not conclusive. They are not
considered definitive among ethologists.

Glorfindel...

Very little is considered definitive among ethologists.

This appears to be the best information we lay people have now.

Eden...

No. It appears to be the information you like. You

Glorfindel...

That is hardly an argument.

...

Glorfindel...

Obviously. No one suggests they could.

Glorfindel...

You are correct in that -- but that is not the kind of communication
we are talking about at all, and I'm sure you realize that. To say that
an animal cannot understand "ancient Rome" does not mean that an animal
cannot anticipate that something will happen in the future because it
has happened in the past, or that an animal cannot communicate by
applying a behavior which he understands in one context to another
different but similar context. To carry out the behavior which resulted
in a treat in one context to a situation where something totally
unrelated is desired by the dog requires a limited form of abstraction.

....

Glorfindel...

However, we do know that some species of animals have learned
cultures which are passed on from one generation of a particular
population to another. Animals are capable of making original
discoveries and teaching them to other animals in their group,
passing them on to future generations.

have a warped, anthropocentric view of animals that
leads you to see things that aren't so.

It's not like a bird pretending to have a broken wing, but is based on
behaviors in a social group learned by observation.

Finola...

Apparently you don't understand the meaning of the word, which is why I

Leif Erikson...

I do.

copied the definition of the word for you.
See I anticipated that you would have an ignorant response.

Leif Erikson...

Actually, although you didn't anticipate anything of
the kind, the example is useful, because an intelligent
human who is familiar with the issue of animal
mental/emotional capabilities might well anticipate a
particular response, even without a signal. You, of
course, didn't; you're merely saying you did in order
to try to appear smarter than you really are.

I think my dog is actually smarter than you are.

Leif Erikson...

No, you don't think that. Your dog evidently can do
some things that neither I nor any other human can do,
but that doesn't make him smarter, and you don't think
he is; you were just going for a cheap, sophomoric insult.

Ron...

Goo, the statement wasn't that the dog was smarter than ALL humans only
that the dog was smarter than YOU.

I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

dh...

The Goober has certainly made it clear that dogs know more
about anticipation than he does.

seconds, it has forgotten all about the walk. If

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Right. But he'll remember latter that you promised.

Leif Erikson...

No, he won't. That's absurd.

instead, a few minutes later, you engage the dog with
some other enjoyable behavior, the dog will participate

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Yeah, but he'll still miss the walk.

Leif Erikson...

No. Sorry.

with exactly the same enthusiasm as it would have done
if this secondary activity had been the initial
stimulus instead of "walk".

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Right. But then he'll be EXXXPECTIN to do the walk he was PROMISED.

Leif Erikson...

Nope.

Sorry, wiz - you're just projecting. I downloaded and
read your dog training guide several years ago, and it
looks pretty good (and I told you so at the time, in
one of the dog groups), but you're out of your depth in
terms of any serious philosophical understanding of
animal psychology.

Later, wiz...

bill.reich...

Watching Lief argue with the Puppy Wizard: Priceless. The internet and
the computer are now justified.

Will in New Haven

From what I've read of Jerry's method it incorporates
a completely new model of learning, which is based (in
simplest terms) on the idea that all behavior is the result
of finding a way to relieve emotional tension.

This is true not just for dogs but all animals.

You don't believe in the validity of this particular model of
learning?

You don't think it makes sense?

Fine, I guess.

But it makes total sense to me.

And it made sense to Pavlov, too, though not many people know
this:

"Postitive emotions arising in connection with the
perfection
of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance
at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement." IOW, emotions, not
outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior."

Animals do not experience "disappointment". It is a

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

That's ABSURD. What are you, some kinda Nazi?

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Don't bet your life on it, leif.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Of curse not. Dogs are VERY patient, leif. He knows
you'll get to it bye an bye, leif. Perhaps he'll remind
you to take him for the walk later.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

You mean, on accHOWENT of you broke your word?

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

You mean no more than if you offered him a cookie
and then forgot, leif?

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Right. But he'll remember latter that you promised.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Yeah, but he'll still miss the walk.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Right. But then he'll be EXXXPECTIN to do the walk he was PROMISED.

From what I've read of Jerry's method it incorporates
a completely new model of learning, which is based (in
simplest terms) on the idea that all behavior is the result
of finding a way to relieve emotional tension.

This is true not just for dogs but all animals.

You don't believe in the validity of this particular model of
learning?

You don't think it makes sense?

Fine, I guess.

But it makes total sense to me.

And it made sense to Pavlov, too, though not many people know
this:

"Postitive emotions arising in connection with the
perfection
of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance
at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement." IOW, emotions, not
outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior."

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Of curse the do, leif. They have the SAME thoughts
an feelins people do, on their doggy level, of curse.

LIKE THIS:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

complex thought outside their mental world.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

That's sheer idiocy, leif. Perhaps THINKIN is a complex
thought HOWEtside of YOUR mental world, leif.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual:

"Dr. Ian Pavlov discovered conditional reflex in
the first decade of this century. He came upon
this discovery quite by accident while working
with some dogs in an experiment for human psychology.

He noticed that some of the dogs coming to his research
laboratory began to drool in anticipation of the food
rewards that were going to be offered during his experiment,
even prior to entering the laboratory.

This piqued his curiosity to the point that he needed
to see what was going on. He invited some dogs to stay
in the lab for this study. No doubt you have heard of
"Pavlov's bell."

The dogs were presented with some liver while a bell was
struck. After several occasions of this conditioning, the
bell was struck without the promised treat.

The dogs naturally got excited anticipating the liver
and began to salivate (drool). Thus came the discovery
of conditional reflex."

The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

That's sheer idiocy, leif. Perhaps THINKIN is a complex
thought HOWEtside of YOUR mental world, leif.

TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard...

Animal emotions - II