No Cesar Millan here

Hi Y'all,
Mary Healey recommended a book called
MINE
by Jean Donaldson
@ www.dogwise.com
I do not recall who she was replying to or why and I do not know what
thread it was. I thought it might be a book I would like to read. I
had never been to that website but I do know that Jean Donaldson is a
popular trainer/author.
I know how to teach basic obedience. I want books on behavioral
problems. The library and Barnes and Noble generally have books on Sit
and Stay or How to housebreak your puppy etc. nothing I am interested
in. While I was at the site I noticed they also have videos on dog .
training, very pricey (not for me)
I intend to order the book "Mine", does anyone else have any
suggestions from that web site on dog aggression?

Rocky...

I like Ian Dunbar's series of 6 pamphlets, one of which concerns
aggression; the others cover a variety of topics. I lend them
out often.

Actually, I would be grateful for any book on that subject regardless of
the location. I was just trying to do that one stop shopping.

Amy Dahl...

Not sure of the site you are on.

I am also interested in aggression. Jean Donaldson's
"Culture Clash" includes a discussion of triggers and
the bite threshold model, which I find useful.

Daniel Tortora's "Help, This Animal is Driving Me
Crazy" is out of print, but very informative. I didn't have
trouble finding a copy. I think I used Amazon's used
book service.

Mary H Healey...

Oh, hey, if we're doing out of print books, Myrna Milani's "The Weekend
Dog" was pretty much the single biggest factor in getting me through Sam's
puppyhood without completely losing my sanity.

It's not a training manual, but it really helped me understand MY reactions
to what Sam was doing.

Amy Dahl

Be Free,

Alison...

James O'heare books are recommended.
http://www.dogpsych.com/
Alison

diddy...

Just for the record. I do NOT like Jean Donaldson. I have "The Culture
Clash" and had high expectations after reading all the hype about it.

I won't bother buying her other books. Then again, I don't have dogs with
aggression issues, either to people, or other dogs. And her referral to
dogs as "lemon heads" only told me, that her relationship with dogs is
superficial, and she doesn't either know them, or bother to develop a deep
understanding relationship with them. Which is understandable, since she
works in a shelter where dogs are transients, and problem dogs. No doubt
those dogs "are" lemon heads. I have a beagle that is one of those too.

I read her book with a chip on my shoulder, and I was incensed all the way
through. Then, I am a number of one. Because it seems everyone recommends
it.

Amy Dahl...

Donaldson has an abrasive style, to be sure. Not only that,
she dissed my profession (retriever training) through her
condemnation of force fetching.

I felt that the "lemon brain" business and some of the other
more-or-less offensive stuff was a deliberate attempt to shake
or prod the reader out of the assumption that dogs are humans
in little fur suits. She is angry, I think, because she sees the
common assumptions people make about dogs' understanding
things in human terms as the source of much unpleasantness
and unnecessary death.

I respect her point of view, and can deal with the style. Her
use of "install" where I would say "instill" is distracting, but
that's a minor point.

It's been awhile since I read it (I lent it to someone, but IIRC
her attitude towards her own dogs is not transparent).

I recommended the book specifically for the bite threshold
model, which I find useful in characterizing aggression. I don't
necessarily promote the whole book, although there's some other
interesting stuff, like the study of novice handlers working
experienced dogs, emphasizing the importance of feedback rate.

Now, I personally find that in dealing with my Chesapeakes, I
can't do without a certain amount of anthropomophism. At least,
the models I can find to describe, and formulate a response to,
certain behavior are based on analogies to human behavior
or thought constructs. Also I get a kick out of what I perceive

Paula...

I don't see a problem with a thoughtful person like yourself thinking
of dogs in terms of human analogies. You seem to be able to grasp the
limitations as well as the utility of analogies. I tend to think and
explain in analogies a lot. Using similarities to things you know to
wrap your brain around a concept you are trying to understand is great
as long as you don't assume the similarities hold across the board or
make the two concepts identical. In other words, I am sure you can
see where aspects of Chessie behavior can be similar to aspects of
human behavior without starting to treat your Chessies like people in
fur coats or your husband like a shaved dog. I wish everyone were
able to do that and like people to be careful in their analogies when
speaking to those who don't get it, but I won't go off on that rant.
Today, anyway. :)

as dog's apparently _thinking_ while working, and really don't
desire to have it all reduced to Skinner. I suspect you and I are
similar in this.

But I didn't take Donaldson's diatribes personally; I just take or
leave what I find interesting, or not, in her book--and some things
in I find really worthwhile. The above, "dogs do what works,"
and "control what the dog wants, control the dog."

diddy...

Absolutely true. In dog training, it's NILIF.. nothing new there

Amy Dahl...

I find a lot of the time, somebody restates a point that many of
us have relied on for some time--but by doing so in a concise
manner, they help us think more clearly and to communicate with
others about it.

You may or may not feel Donaldson does, with these remarks,
and I have no need to press the point. There's a guy in the
retriever world now, Mike Lardy, who is superb at it. I remember
fumbling to explain to customers who want to get an e-collar,
a few guidelines to help them use it constructively. Mike says,
you can always use the collar to enforce this command, and this,
and this, with a dog that has been properly trained on them. He's
right; it's nothing new, but it makes spelling it out for my
customers lots easier. Similarly, I use the two comments above
with customers quite a bit.

Amy Dahl

Paula...

Speaking of anthropomorphizing, I use these same concept a lot in
working with parents who are having difficulty with their kids.

Amy Dahl

bethgsd...

When I first read "The Culture Clash" I thought it was great. When I
went to reread it a few years ago I saw a lot of the flaws in it. Such
as claiming to be very objective and scientific and then using totally
subjective language. And if I hear one more shiney, happy idjit refer
to dogs as "lemon brains" I may be sitting on death row.
As long as people don't take this book as the be all and end all of dog
training there are some good nuggets in there.
Beth

Judy