docking my rotti's tail, yes or no, she is 6mo's old

i have so many people tell me that she's not a "true" rottweiler if i let
her keep her tail. she was already 2or3months old when we got her, and
when we went to the vet he said it can be done but at her age now it would
be major surgery, and might drive her crazy not having it. i think she is
very cute with it, and don't really feel the need to put her through the

Alison...

Don't do it! Follow your heart. I'm amazed at a vet even considering
docking your dog's tail at this age for cosmestic purposes.
Alison

pain. what do you think.

Jasen...

Of course she'll be a true Rottwieler. That's just human society dictating
to you it's own selfish "fashionable" ,yet cruel, ideals. Nobody would dare
take a finger off a baby because someone thought it was cool......

shore...

Various form of human mutilation for essentially cosmetic
purposes really are/have been quite common, from tattoos to
foot binding to clitoridectomies.

However, what makes a dog a "true" representative of its
breed has to do with its pedigree and genetics, and cropping
its tail isn't going to change those. I wouldn't unless I
had plans to show the dog or involve him specifically in
some activity that requires it.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

If she's already 2-3 months old, fougedeboutit.

It's major surgery now.

If the tail turns out to be unstructurally sound, gets injured
repeatedly, etc., you can always have the operation done then.

And, no, it wouldn't drive her "crazy," either, but it might change
her manner of movement, physical behavior, etc.

0tterbot...

no.
kylie

elegy...

i vote no. it *is* major surgery at six months and it can be hard to
get tails to heal. not to mention that the tail is an extension of the
spine, and i'd really prefer to not go messing around with spines.

i like rotts with their tails, personally. i've only seen a few-
mostly the result of bybers who didn't know what they were doing- but
i think they're very expressive, and certainly don't take away from
the dog's "rottweilerness".

Sionnach...

I've seen several, and they looked just fine. All of them also had
perfectly normal, THICK, well-furred tails that did not look at all as if
they'd get damaged doing any activity currently performed by pet Rotts.

Additionally, WRT traditional reasons for docking, AFAIK it very short dock
was because Rotties were HERDING dogs - cattle drovers, to be precise. A
very short dock is often done on cattle dogs for safety/health reasons -
cattle can and will stomp on long tails, and will follow up by stomping the

Mary Healey...

Any herding dog so slow or unobservant that it gets its tail stomped
probably shouldn't be around stock. (I was also told that ACDs sometimes

Sionnach...

I've seen cattle move damn fast when defending themselves/attacking
predators, and the people I've heard it from are those who work with
free-range cattle in the West.

Sionnach...

Whoops - hit "send" too soon: Those people have described seeing a dog get
"caught" by the tail when cattle spin and go after them, and in some cases
subsequently being stomped and/or gored.

have their tails docked for similar reasons, and believed it for some time,
but was set straight by folks who actually herd with their ACDs.)

Herding dogs and draft horses were docked to identify them as working
animals (and not subject to tax in some cases), which may be one reason
Rotts are customarily docked.

The breeds still often used for herding seem to be mostly tailed varieties,
with the exception of Aussies. BC, ACD, Kelpie, Catahoula, who'm I
missing?

Sionnach...

McNabb, for one - which is a breed which IS docked for working purposes.

dog - but herding Rotties are few and far between these days.

Opinicus...

I don't let other people tell me what to do.

Michael A. Ball...

The important points have already been made; so, this is merely another vote in support of
them. Enjoy your Rottweiler, as she was created.

Animal surgery, for cosmetic purposes, makes my blood boil.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Yippee!

Finally!

Hallelujah!

Praise the Lord!

sighthounds & siberians...

Right - - there are plenty of Greyhounds around with partially
amputated tails due to simply injuries usually caused by the tail
simply being wagged against a crate or wall. The reason they're not
docked is because they do actually serve a purpose.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

What purpose would that be, exactly?

Vets4Docking:

http://www.vets4docking.org.uk/statement.htm

"c) Docking affects the dog's balance and communication? The balance
issue is easily addressed. No dog requires acute balance skills more
than a racing greyhound circling the track. Observation shows,
however, that the racing greyhound makes little use of its tail during
a race. A greyhound which has had its tail docked because of injury
suffers no balance impairment during subsequent races.
Communication in dogs is primarily an interaction by smell, facial
expression and body posture. Similarly, urine marking of territory is
a major communication mode. To a lesser extent, vocal communication
plays a part. The tail takes a small part in the process and
experience shows that the absence of a tail has absolutely no effect
on canine communication skill. It is a simple fact that naturally
docked breeds are perfectly happy and interact normally with both
humans and other dogs.

Council of Docked Breeds:

http://www.cdb.org/quentin.htm

"As you may know, I have spent over thirty five years of my adult life
studying anatomy and movement in canines with special emphasis on
balance and flexibility. I have thousands of feet of film of dogs
gaiting, coursing, swimming, jumping and going to ground.

In the course of these studies and observations, I have often found it
necessary to question and to ultimately disprove, some long standing
but mistaken ideas about what parts of the anatomy are responsible for
movement or balance, good or bad.

If you will excuse the play on words, there are more tales about tails
than any other part of the anatomy; it is used for balance when
turning, as a rudder and a float aid when swimming, a thruster when
jumping and a braking mechanism when landing, as a means of
communication with the environment. There is not a single shred of
evidence to support any of the above wishful thinking.

Were there any truth to the above, we must first explain why those
breeds which are genetically without tails or with naturally
foreshortened tails, in all cases have as many balanced, excellent
moving dogs, and are as good at swimming and better jumpers than many
of their counterparts *with* tails.

The only time in my view that a tail is a factor in balance in terms
of appearance is when it is incorrect in its carriage and everyone
knows that is most evident in full-tailed dogs.; tails up over the
back, curled or hooked tails, too high or too low placement. I have
never known a Pembroke Welsh Corgi or an Old English Sheepdog, often
born completely tail-less, to be considered lacking in balance because
of it.

As a former professor of anatomy, and a witness to many tail dockings,
I know it is not a traumatic experience to a two or three day old
puppy, certainly no more than a circumcision, and I suspect nobody is
contemplating a law forbidding that practice.

The last thing I want to do is attempt to interferes with the law of
another country, but in my view this law will so negatively affect the
breeds concerned, as to effectively eliminate them from International
competition and could bring about great hardship upon individual dogs.
By that I suggest that otherwise very good dogs may be sold at a more
advanced age, to a country where docking is "required" and then be
subjected to docking. Certainly, those breeds concerned stand a
serious chance of going into decline and International exchange will
have an influence on the export of these breeds".

Mustang Sally

I appreciate your sentiments, Michael, but it's not always that
simple.

First, there have been vailid reasons to dock the tail of the working
Rotty. Second, the fact that Rotty tails have historically been

shore...

Emmett, too, but it's considered a fault. His corkscrews to
the left. I blab to my dogs around the house and last week
I was talking to Emmett and saying "I'm going to get dressed
and have some breakfast and when I'm done we'll go for a ... "
but realized that I really shouldn't say the obvious next
word if I meant that we'd be going out in about 20 minutes.
Instead, I spelled out "w.a.l.k." His disappointment was
clear, not only from his face but also because his tail
unrolled from the base.

sighthounds & siberians...

Tasha's is an upright curl, but it isn't a complete circle. Hers
unrolls when she's exploring outside and curls when she wags. Nobody
would ever mistake her for a show Siberian, so it doesn't matter.

Mustang Sally

docked has virtually eliminated the need to select for structurally
sound tails. So by not docking the tail today, you stand a fairly good
chance of getting a structurally unsound tail, and thereby increasing
the chance of its injury. Maybe necessitating the need for painful

Michael A. Ball...

Thanks, Jack. I've simmered down. When I first heard that there were good reasons for tail
docking, it came from someone I still look up to for dog data, but it was still hard to
accept.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Here's another example of what I'm talkjing about. Take the Labrador
retriever. The Lab's tail has been carefully selected for many
generations now, to not only be structurally sound, but to also serve
as a deadly weapon!

Nothing can clear off a coffee table faster than a Lab's tail.

NOTHING!

Janet B...

NOT true - a Flat-coat tail dusts at the same time.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Okay.

Lab's don't do dusting.

Total destruction, yes. Dusting, no.

And small children who have been swiped with a Lab's tail sometimes
require multiple surgeries to repair all their broken bones, etc.

Some have even been killed. :)

But the reason the Labrador has such a powerful, structurally sound
tail (it serves as a rudder when swimming, it must be strong enough to
withstand charges into heavy brush, etc.) is because it has always
been SELECTED for. In fact, some breeders go overboard about it, and
forget to select for far more important criteria, health, temperament,
working ability, etc.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Yes, it is hard to accept sometimes. Until one finds out *why* it's
done.

[]

sighthounds & siberians...

Wow, I'm surprised that vets in favor of docking are allowed to remain
in the UK. Nevertheless, I wouldn't take their opinion that racing
greyhounds don't use their tails during racing as evidence of fact.

sighthounds & siberians...

On this particular issue, I'd take the opinions of people who make a
living breeding, training and racing greyhounds.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

So what you're saying is, if a racing GH injures his tail (which you

sighthounds & siberians...

said, I think, happens frequently) and it requires amputation, either
partially or totally, the dog is automatically retired? <

No, what I'm saying is that racing Greyhounds use their tails for
balance and steering while racing. Tail injuries occur very frequently

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Can we try to cut through the fog here?

You said:

Handsome Jack Morrison...

You suggested that the people *you* know dispute the expert (an expert
on animal anatomy, motion physics, etc.) opinion that I offered up
previously who said that the lack of a tail has no effect on a racing
GH's ability to *race.*

If any of your people are actually involved in racing, not just with

sighthounds & siberians...

rescue, they should be able to offer some evidence supporting their
opinion, right? <

I'm not talking about people involved in rescue, I'm talking about
people who breed, train and race Greyhounds. I thought I'd said that.
The evidence is the same as that which your anatomy expert offered:
years of observation.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Then why did you snip off the part where I asked you for a name?

Just one would be nice, two names would be even better.

Whaddya say?

rescue, they should be able to offer some evidence supporting their
opinion, right?

in retired racing Greyhounds; I don't know how frequently they occur

Handsome Jack Morrison...

But we're not talking about retired racers. We're talking about GHs
who *still* race. And how the lack of a tail (because of a
partial/full amputation, etc.) effects their *racing* ability, which
you (and your friends) insist it does.

So how can these people know that if they're not actually involved in
*racing*?

while dogs are actually racing, but my group has never taken in a dog
that had an amputation due to a tail injury and that went back to
racing after the amputation, nor have I ever heard of that happening.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Then how exactly do you (or your friends) know if they need ( for

sighthounds & siberians...

"balance and steering") their tails to race, or not? <

They're not my friends, they're people in the Greyhound racing
industry. I don't believe that it's necessary to cut off a dog's tail

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Who??? Do they have names? Do they take tickets, actually race, what?

to determine whether he uses it; I think it's possible to watch him
while he still has it and see how he uses it.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

That's utter nonsense, and you know it. The only way to know for sure
is to compare the *times* of controlled cohorts of tailed dogs vs
docked dogs (which is what my expert did). Or the times of certain
dogs pre-dock vs post-dock.

Please tell me that you can understand why that would be necessary.

"balance and steering") their tails to race, or not?

I realize that anecdotal evidence isn't statistics, but the anecdotal
evidence includes thousands of dogs.

sighthounds & siberians...

Most broken tails that occur on the track just heal crooked. A "happy

Handsome Jack Morrison...

How do you know the tails were broken because of an accident of some
kind? And that the dogs weren't born with the defect? Do you perform
x-rays, etc?

Janet B...

Many times. The people coming here for advice don't tend to be very
dog-raising-savvy though.

Janet B...

Sometimes. All of it with a "this is only part of your problem".

Janet B...

I don't see that. I see people balking at docking a 6 month old for
no good reason. I don't have a problem with very early docking (nor
circumcision), but don't feel great about docking an older puppy or a
bris.

Janet B...

Minor, of any. S/N for the novice owner, has a whole lotta benefit.
For the dogs and the owner. Those same owners, wanting a dog who
"looks like the breed they are" are not exactly working homes where
sheep feces is a problem. OTOH, many may be pet owners of rescue
GH's, who's tails break open in the most benign circumstances. So why
aren't we docking GH's again?

tail" type of injury would be treated conservatively, and if the injury

sighthounds & siberians...

conservatively, as opposed to a partial/full amputation? <

Experience and observation.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

You have experience actually *racing* GHs???

Could you elaborate on that "experience" a bit, and how and what you
actually "observed"?

Feel free to take as much space as you need to do that, okay?

It's *okay* to use more than three words in a sentence.

Mustang Sally

didn't heal, the dog would be retired unless it was a very, very

Handsome Jack Morrison...

How do you actually know if such an injury would be treated
conservatively, as opposed to a partial/full amputation?

successful racer bringing in a lot of money.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Again, you're disputing (along with certain people you know) the
opinion of an expert on animal anatomy and motion physics, who claims
that a GH doesn't need (for "balance and steering") its tail to race
well.

Are you not?

I'm saying that it doesn't. The expert on animal anatomy and motion
physics claims that it doesn't.

I'm trying to find out who is right here. I'm even willing to be
wrong (God forbid!), but I need something besides anecdotes from
people who *don't* race for a living.

I'm asking you for some kind of evidence, or proof, that it's actually
needed for "balance and steering.". One way to gather that evidence is
to talk with actual GH racing folks (I had to assume those were the
kind of folks who you were relying on to know that, right?) and to
find out what happens when a racing GH loses all or part of his tail.
Does he keep racing? If so, what effect does it have on the dog's
ability to compete effectively, etc.

If you don't know such people, I find it hard to understand why you
would automatically dispute the opinion of an expert on animal anatomy
and motion physics, who claims that it has no effect.

Help me, Rhonda. Help, help me Rhonda!

Mustang Sally

said, I think, happens frequently) and it requires amputation, either
partially or totally, the dog is automatically retired?

It can't race anymore?

A simple yes or no answer would suffice.

And if the answer is yes, could you provide me with someone's name (of
one of those "people who make their living breeding, training, and
racing greyhounds"), like I did?

Mustang Sally

I understand your message, but I notice that "health reasons" not cosmetics is the base
justification--and that is what I have been learning to accept.

I also understand that docking all the tails reduces the likelihood of getting an unsound
tail. However, that does not end the risk of future unsound tails. You know, better than

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Not exactly. It reduces the chance for *injury.* But by not docking
the tail for generations and generations (like with the Rotty), the
selection *for* structurally sound tails just didn't occur, so there
would now be a greater chance that structurally unsound tails would
start to appear.

You get what you select for; you don't get what you don't select for.

And Rotty breeders haven't selected for structurally sound tails for
100+ years, so there's no telling what you'd get today.

I.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Again, it would take a huge, concentrated effort to start selecting
for structurally sound tails, which very well could result in
unintended and perhaps unpleasant consequences for the Rotty breed.

Bonsai...

Making docking tails illegal - with exceptions - was the right thing to do.
A dog, just living in a family (no matter what breed), does not have a
"high risk" to injure it's tail. A dog without tail has at least lost a big
part of it's communication skills.
The United States Rottweiler Club goes btw. with the FCI Standard.

FCI-Standard (F.C.I.-Standard Nr. 147 / 19.06.2000 / D):
"Tail: In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease
may be hanging."

German standard (FCI-Standard):
"Tail: In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease
may be hanging."

USRC-Standard (FCI-Standard with one extension):
"Tail: In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease
may be hanging. USRC Adopted Exception: Docked at the first or second joint
within 7 days of birth or left in its natural state."

The "USRC Adopted Exception: Docked at the first or second joint within 7
days of birth or left in its natural state." is marked to be _the only_
difference to the FCI Standard.

Bonsai...

For good reasons. There are also other countries, being very strict with
that. The most important issues with that is _health_ and for working dogs
also the _working ability_.

Bonsai...

I don't see any sense in breeding e.g. the Collie 2 inch higher (AKC) than
in Europe (FCI). Or to breed German Shepherd Dogs even more frog-like than
in Germany. Or to breed a dog, then cut off it's tail for just optical
reasons or because people don't know what the tail would look like by now.

I know there are differences in different countries (supply and demand),
but they should be within one standard. Many breeds also have "working
lines" and "non working lines", where the dogs can have many differences,
especially in temperament. I assume you know that dogs from a working line
can be dramatically different from showdogs and/or familydogs, but they all
conform to one standard (more or less).

Bonsai...

Hmmm, how many other poses do you know?
It's hanging, horizontal, curved up to the head and coiled up to the back
(Husky-like). I only miss Spitz-like.

Bonsai...

United States Rottweiler Club:
"In natural condition, level in extension of the upper line; at ease may be
hanging."

The American Rottweiler Club goes with the AKC Standard. I have just
realized that the AKC-Standard I found was from 1990. So, the online
version may be outdated.

Bonsai...

Guess why there aren't more Details about the tail in the standard and the
tail _is not_ a disqualifying fault. Besides, I don't see a "healthier"
breed by docking it's tail.

Bonsai...

How do you define the word "Standard"? Everybody has the option to go for
a new breed with a new name.

Bonsai...

Who said you should?
If you breed a german dog, go with the german standard.
If you breed an australian dog, go with the australian standard.
If you breed a british dog, go with the british standard.
If you breed an american dog, go with the american standard.

Bonsai...

You are bringing up a topic which I know from the GSD. The good old
Rittmeister von Stephanitz would turn in his grave, if he would know what
happened to the breed by now.

Bonsai...

I am not a Collie person, so I don't know the details about the history and
purpose, but I would first go for the "original" dog, except there are
health reasons to change that.
I would not go for the looks. In my opinion health is always more important
than looks.

Bonsai...

This is why I asked for the "american frog-dog" since those are even worse
than the "real" GSDs from Germany.
But you are right, if the "originals" "freak out", some people should be
sticking with the "old". The GSD lost by now a lot of (their working)
ground to belgian Shepherds and other breeds. If it comes to the question
"want to have a GSD", I recommend to go for the eastern european breeding
lines and/or the "old german shepherd dogs".

Bonsai...

Ouh, what's that? A showdog?
But as I said, I am not a Collie person.

Bonsai...

Some breeders in the US go with the FCI-Standard, others don't. I don't see
how there could be "The American Rottweiler".

Btw., I don't like you political side blows and I don't think they belong
in this NG.

I'll go to that web site, when I return from the shelter. In the meantime, thanks for
adding some balance here.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

You bet.

Experience is something you don't get--until just after you need it.

corrective surgery, etc.

diddy...

Why put a (now adult) dog through major surgery unless the need arises?
If an accident happens requiring "painful
corrective surgery, etc.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Pay attention, Diddy.

No one said that she should dock her Rotty's tail *now.*

In fact, I specifically told her to "fougedaboudit."

I was simply explaining to *Michael* the reason that Rotties have
historically had their tails docked, etc., and that it's not exactly
"cosmetic" surgery, and that to change the practice now could lead to
unintended, and perhaps unpleasant conseqences for the Rotty breed.

"
Would be then, the time to dock the tail. IMO

Plus, selecting for structurally sound tails will eventually change
the entire Rotty type, and maybe not for the better.

http://www.amrottclub.org/tale%20of%20tails.htm

"Let's imagine for a moment that the Rottweiler's tail is left
undocked. Since tail type has not been a breeding criterion for over
100 years, someone would have to select a desired type, which would
probably be similar to the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog's set and
carriage. The length of hair on the tail and straightness of the tail
vertebra must be considered. If you have bred dogs at all, you realize
that structure cannot be changed overnight. It can take generations to
get a gene pool of Rottweilers with the correct tail. Since the tail
of a Rottweiler will be very noticeable, tail selection will suddenly
move from no consideration at all to major consideration in the
selection of breeding stock. Healthy, correct temperament, typey (sans
tail) animals may be overlooked for inferior animals with the desired
tail..."

A dog's life is too short; their only fault really.

Rocky...

It's not a vote. Tail docking, if done, is done at a few days
old, not 6 months. Major surgery is a thing to be avoided.

Sionnach...

Yes, and no reputable/decent vet that I know of will dock a tail past
puppy infancy **for purely cosmetic reasons**. Medical reasons are a
different story.

Enjoy your Rottie's tail - and watch your shins! (That is, if
her tail turns out like the only Rottie tail I've ever met.)

John Wesley...

No need to do it. I had a cocker spaniel pup as a kid. His was never
docked. Its purely cosmetic and if it will be more like surgery at a
late age why risk it. When I worked at the vet as a kid I watched the

dogsRgr8...

European kennel clubs don't allow docking; tails or ears and they're
right. It's painful and why do it? You like her with her tail? Good
for you. Enjoy her as she is and spare her the pain. Please!

vet dock the tails. Pups were wide awake and snip. Not very pleasant.
Cropping ears are even worse. Don't get me started.