Touble House/Crate Training

I adopted a 9 month old puppy who was rescued from a puppy mill. She
obviously had no training of any kind. I have had her three weeks now
and the crate training is not going well. I am not working right now,
so I am home with her all day. I take her out all the time, and give
her treats when she goes, everything I read about doing. And all of
that is going well, she does not have accidents in the house, and she
makes it 7 hours overnight in the crate just fine. The problems come
when I leave her. I have never left her more than 3 hours alone, and
always make sure she goes before I leave, but every time I come home
there is pee and poop all over the crate. I don't know if this is a
house breaking problem or anxiety over my leaving her alone, I have no

Rocky...

I think that this is a "I haven't figured out what you want"
problem. As a puppy from a puppy mill, she learned to go inside
her enclosure and now she's not supposed to.

You may have to spend a lot of time outside with her and wait to
reward her when she goes. If she won't go on grass, try her on
gravel or dirt or pavement or even chain link lying on the
ground - IOW, work with her towards what you want and away from

AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory...

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory...

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.

what she's been brought up to believe is acceptable.

As to the inside crate - it may be too large. During her
retraining, though, I'd use the crate way less and supervise
more. Continue to use the crate for good stuff, like meals, and
only sparingly otherwise, like when you're in the shower. Don't
set her up for failure - leave her in the crate for only a few
minutes at a time so she doesn't have a chance to go. First,
though, give it a good cleaning.

idea. Can anyone help?

Handsome Jack Morrison...

I'd stop using the crate. According to your post, this pup may have
been used to "going" inside his crate at the puppy mill for close to 9
months already(!). That means your pup has probably been *classically
conditioned* to always "going" in his crate (if it's a typical puppy
mill, your pup may have never set foot on green grass until you
rescued him), just like pups can be classically conditioning to
"going" outside over time (by only being allowed to "go" outside).

Paula...

I wonder if you could get a puppy mill pup to pee and poop on a pee
pad inside the crate and therefore allow it out and about in the room.
I wouldn't give it a whole lot of room, but it would be interesting to
see if it would choose the crate to potty and play and sleep
elsewhere.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Without keeping it on a tether at all times (as you advised below), I
would fear that the pup might end up classically conditioning itself
to going not only in the crate, but in the house as well.

My best (and quickest) success with pups (and dogs) who have already
been spoiled to the crate has come by ditching them altogether (the
crate, not the pup!).

This particular pup has probably (we may never know for sure) been
classically conditioned for up to 9 months to going inside his crate.
That's pretty hard to overcome. At this point, just the presence of
the crate might trigger the pup's urge to "go" ("conditioned
stimulus").

Marcel Beaudoin...

Would changing the type of crate have any effect?? If the pup (while at the
mill) was kept in a wire crate, would changing crates to a solid plastic
travel crate make a difference?

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Perhaps, Marcel. But it would probably be a trial and error situation
and one that might be made even worse while you were busy
experimenting with different crates (how would you even know what kind
of crate, anyway?).

It would be akin to why some pups only want to "go" on grass, and not
on bare dirt, concrete, etc.

They become conditioned to going only on grass, not necessarily to
going outside.

But once a dog has been spoiled to the crate (i.e., has lost the
instinct not to soil his den, which makes crate-training even
possible), IMO, the crate can only conjure up memories we're now
trying to erase. That's why I don't want it around until the pup has
been reliably RE-conditioned to going outside.

Additionally, it forces the pup's owner to be even more attentive to
the pup's needs.

Again, *my* best results have been obtained by wiping the slate clean,
at least to the extent that's even possible.

I usually prefer to wipe the slate clean and start anew.

On the other hand, anything is possible.

As far as advice to the OP: Since you are home, don't crate the pup,
tether it to you with a leash and watch it like a hawk for any signs
it is going or looking for a spot to go. Scoop it up and take it to
where you want it to go at any sign. It's a pain, but well worth it,
to keep an eagle eye out at all times until the dog gets the idea.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Yup, very good advice for this particular pup.

If it's possible, leave this pup outdoors in a secured area while you
are away. With access to the grass, yard, etc., so that he can
continue his conditioning to "going" there.

Eventually, your pup will need to be counter-conditioned to going
"outside," rather than in her crate, and that will take some time, and
a whole bunch of PATIENCE on your part.

But right now anyway, the crate is almost certainly part of the
problem, not the solution.

I'd ditch it for now.