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Info on choke chains
3 Feb 2006 15:36:23 -0800
rec.pets.dogs.behavior
previous
rnbeasley...
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Alison...
Alison...
Alison...
Alison...
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different. Second, I
dallygirl...
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hey hey wait...i was being sarcastic...someone else refered to it as a
tool of horror.
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Alison...
Alison...
Alison...
Alison...
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Did you test a choke chain? If you did, what did you think
of it? Would you use one on your dogs?
Alison
Janet B...
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the prong and e-collar aren't good enough for you Alison? Geesh.
Handsome Jack Morrison...
White Monkey...
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Oh, no, no, no. The condition the last place we lived put these Phal.'s in
is deplorable, I'm really distressed about it. Their roots are drying now
after I clipped out the damage and I'll be repotting tomorrow in hopes
they'll live here where we have light and air and central heating.... I
still get upset thinking about that darling Oncydium twinkle,
salmon-colored, that didn't make it. Luckily the Calumnara wildcat, the one
I'd slated as most likely to keel over, has suddenly blessed me with blooms
( http://www.xs4all.nl/~cooper17/katrina/Misc/Wildcat.jpg ), but now someone
gave me a Cymbidum for my birthday and I'll be a nervous wreck until I'm
sure it'll do OK. And the Dendrobiums need some tender care, as well. Not to
mention the two Paph.'s. No, sensitive people like me should NOT raise
orchids--but it's too late for me!
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Alison shouldn't use a bra, either.
Janet B...
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Another item, that fitted properly, offers just the right amount of
restraint without discomfort! The horror of it all...........
Janet B...
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mandatory - every owner should feel it for themselves before it ever
goes on the dog.
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Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Restraint?
How dare you restrain those...puppies!
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Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Sometimes the horror is in not restraining them, eh?
Marcel Beaudoin...
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By relying on training for something that is a potential life and death
situation the first time the training fails, you are guessing as to when
the training is at a high enough level that you don't have to worry about
it. Even then, you have to worry that there may be a momentary lapse.
Management allows you to ensure that someone who knows the consequences of
the action (or inaction) is the one responsible, not the being that may be
reacting to an instinct it doesn't even realize it has.
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Please don't tell my wife I said that, okay?
She's a crack shot.
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It would probably cut off what little oxygen there currently is
getting through to her brain...
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Choke chains are best when properly fitted, and the shape of a human
head and neck is not very suited to that. And you're being whiny and
wincy and ignorant.
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I've always thought that you threaded one ring through the other to
Sionnach...
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How about people who lose dogs because they hang themselves in choke
collars?
And if the issue is a dog which is a collar-popper/escape artist, nobody in
their right mind would use a choke OR a prong for that; the appropriate tool
is a flat nylon martingale collar.
If the dog wasn't a known collar-popper/escape artist, then what was the
trainer/handler doing which inspired that strong an escape effort??
Janet B...
Alison...
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No Janet, I'm not though there are plenty of people on this
NG who are. Comments like this don't become you.
Rocky...
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If you respect Janet, you should take that comment as a nudge.
Alison...
Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Someone should alert Alison Number Two that her smug
self-righteousness is even more unbecoming than her incessant whining,
ignorance, etc.
Although I hear that the French have no problem with it.
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nudge.>>
There are very few people I respect on RPDB, Diane Blackman
tops the list.
I like some people here even if I don't agree with them.
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You ask us to respect your opinions, yet you don't return the
Alison...
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I'm very sorry , I didn't realise that asking questions in
a polite manner, providing cites when asked etc was not
respecting your opinions. I humbly apologise.
Rocky...
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I took askance to a statement of yours, not a question.
Alison...
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The above was in reply to this-
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Alison...
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the favour.>
How can " Comments like this don't become you" in
reply to "And you're being whiny and wincy and ignorant"
be misconstrued as not respecting people's opinions?
(assuming that's the statement you took askance at)
Rocky...
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No. In the post to which you previously responded, I actually
quoted the statement I questioned.
Alison...
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The one you quoted was "Comments like this don't
become you" so that's the same one.
Rocky...
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Now you're being silly. Look for what I actually put in quotes.
Alison...
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Maybe you should take a look at Google to refresh your
memory.
Rocky...
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Have you followed up the message-ids I've posted? Of course
Alison...
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Have you ever thought you might have trust issues?
When I clicked on the link I just got my own e.mail pop up
with that id thing in the To: part. I thought you were
messing around. What was I
supposed to do with it, and no, I am not being
disingenuous!
I was reading and posting those emails in the early hours as
I was watching
foal cam so I wasn't my usual alert self.
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not. Or, if you have, then you're being disingenuous.
But, if you had, you'd see that it was this comment (quoted in
Alison...
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"Taking part in this
thread will be good practise for the future as you will very
likely meet dog owners and trainers who have similar
thoughts and behaviours to some people here."
You could have simply have copied and pasted it. It
would
have saved a.bit of time. I had no idea you were offended by
this, it was in another part of the thread.
Rocky...
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Which is why I quoted (in "quote" marks) that passage of yours
at the very beginning of our exchange. So, it would have saved
a bit of time if you had read my post.
And please don't blame me for your software's lack of ability to
interpret message-id links, especially when they're so easily
Alison...
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I'm not blaming you for anything. You accused me of either
not bothering to read the link you gave or being
disingenuous and I gave you an explanation as to why the
accusations was false.
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cut and pasted into google.
Anyway, respond any way you like, my filter is putting me on an
Alison...
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Perhaps you could do me a favour and make it permanent.
It was you that actually posted to me first so perhaps you
should stop doing that.
Alison
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Alison holiday. See ya around.
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"quote" marks) of yours to which I objected:
"Taking part in this
thread will be good practise for the future as you will very
likely meet dog owners and trainers who have similar
thoughts and behaviours to some people here."
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Alison
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Alison
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Janet replied to a post that was for Sarah, I was struck
by the fact that Sarah *didn't* mention chokes. I wondered
Sionnach...
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I didn't mention them because I haven't used one in at least 10 years, and
haven't ever tested one on myself. I don't have a problem with slip collars
being used for formal obedience training IF they're used correctly, but IMO
Alison...
and IME very, very few people know how to do that.
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what her opinion was seeing as the thread was originally
about chokes. It was a genuine post but apparently Janet
doesn't classify it as intelligent debate.
Janet B...
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IIRC, it was about trying these tools on HER OWN NECK. That in itself
is pretty absurd.
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Alison
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Alison
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favour.
Janet B...
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thanks Matt - that's really the problem. Debate is a good thing.
Basically calling us all dog-abusing-thugs (not in those exact words,
but.......) is just plain old rude.
lucyaafar...
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Just curious, would you call those trainers who do cause damage to a
dog's trachea by the incorrect use of a choke collar "dog abusing
thugs"?
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"Taking part in this
thread will be good practise for the future as you will very
likely meet dog owners and trainers who have similar
thoughts and behaviours to some people here."
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Janet B...
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Sorry Alison, but you are and you are far more capable of holding an
intelligent discussion and debate than the comments that you've made
have indicated.
Ignorance of something is not a good debate point. Become educated
and argue in an intelligent manner, and that's good thought
provocation. Sweep a big, ignorant hand over anything that isn't
sugar and spice and you just wind up sounding silly.
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Alison
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Alison...
Alison...
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It quite funny that the US translation is Dibs and
that is my dog's name is Dibby, Dibs for short.
Alison
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I doubt it would fry you either but if a tens machine
can cause pain and lock your fingers than I assume that a
shock collar would too.
Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Then I also have to assume that the chef's knife in your kitchen
drawer *can* cut off your hand?
Hopefully you know how to handle the knife safely and won't do that.
I also have to assume that the pair of garden shears you keep in your
cupboard *can* cut off one of your fingers.
Hopefully you know how to handle it safely, too, and won't do that.
Otherwise...
Ban kitchen knives!
Ban garden shears!
Ban everything!
Ban! Ban! Ban!
So many dangerous, scary things out there.
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Janet B...
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A properly used machine has been a godsend and has never done any such
thing. Guess you are thinking about some evil dr from a movie?
Alison...
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It's not about a properly used machine, it's what the
AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory...
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We was talkin abHOWET the SHOCK COLLAR.
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AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory...
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Oh? You mean LIKE THIS?:
Sionnach...
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Good-oh! Fortuntely *not* an issue with any of my guys... they act like a
cross between Cujo and the Hound of the Baskervilles when somebody rings the
doorbell, but the minute the door is open or the person steps into the
house, they're all about wanting to be petted.
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Electrified collar burned family pet
By Cathy Mong
Dayton Daily News
VANDALIA |
A civil lawsuit filed by a Vandalia family on behalf
of its injured dog could set legal precedent in Ohio,
says Dayton attorney Paul R. Leonard, an avowed
animal lover who wants the state to toughen its
penalties for abuse of pets.
Leonard, former Dayton mayor and state legislator
in the 1970s, said the case of Boomer, a 4-year-old
rambunctious golden retriever burned by an electrified
collar, is the first to be filed by his newly formed
Center for Animal Law and Advocacy.
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machine can do.
It wasn't an evil movie , it's what happens when you
accidently turn the knob on your machine the wrong way .
Janet B...
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so we should ban them or criticize them (the machines) because someone
doesn't use them properly? How about educating users and using for
good - kinda like e-collars.
Alison...
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A person has a choice to use a Tens machine or not.
All we're doing here is repeating what we've said in threads
like these over the past six years. We might as well save
our time and just re-read old threads.
As to education, if I wanted someone to demonstrate a shock
collar, I wouldn't chose you. I wouldn't enjoy watching a
dog neck muscles twitching and you saying it's a block head
because it didn't give any response.
Janet B...
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Didja ever consider that he wasn't feeling any pain or discomfort?
Alison...
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Did you ever consider he was? Did you ever consider he
might have shut down ?
Janet B...
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He did not. I knew this dog pretty well.
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When ever my dog doesn't do something or gets the wrong end
of the stick, I don't call him dumb, I look to see what I'm
doing wrong. You're an experienced trainer but a good
experienced trainer IMHO would consider being on the safe
side and assume that the dog was feeling something and not
that the dog was dumb. I just wonder what impression the
Janet B...
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Please show me where I called the dog "dumb".
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dogs owners went away with, maybe that a dogs neck twitching
when a shock collar is used is normal .
Janet B...
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The owner went away (actually, this was at her home, so technically,
*I* went away) with confirmation that her dog was a very typically
stubborn GSP who would ignore an IF system if she got one.
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Alison
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Handsome Jack Morrison...
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We're all wasting our time on these morons (Lucy, Alison, Diana, etc.
(and seemingly just about any Brit), Janet.
Facts, logic, education, knowledge, experience, etc. mean absolutely
nothing to these Shining Path types.
Janet B...
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it's truly amazing to me. The concept that we - people, dogs, cats,
whatever, - are individuals, and feel physical things differently from
each other, just doesn't seem to sink in.
I am heat intolerant. Many people around me just don't get it.
They're comfortable, how can I possibly be so miserable? But if they
LOOK at my face turning red, and FEEL my skin which is hot, they
suddenly are amazed that I can feel something so very different than
what they're feeling from the same physical influence.
Why a particular dog would have a significantly different dicomfort or
even pain threshold from another dog, just doesn't seem to be a
possibility to the wincers. Amazing.
Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Yes, it is amazing.
I've had a few of these Shining Path types visit my place.
I use the collar on myself. I hand them the remote and ask them to
hit the button. I ask them if they'd like a "taste" for themselves.
Nothing works!
I demonstrate to them in great detail, over and over again, but they
leave still insisting that the dog *must* be experiencing great pain.
Otherwise how can I get those dogs to do such unbelieveable stuff?
Electricity is electricity to them.
It's all bad. Baaaad! BAAAAAAD!
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They "believe" in their hearts that we're all barbarians, animal
abusers, etc., and nothing is ever going to convince them otherwise.
Even their own two eyes.
Handsome Jack Morrison...
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The mark of a good trainer is knowing when to AVOID problems
(especially when it's so easy to do), especially problems that could
result in the death of your dog.
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Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Or someone creates yet another problem while trying to "cure" a
problem that's so easy to avoid in the first place.
By the way, have you been able to get Jerry to agree to a competition
yet?
Well, let me know when you do, okay?
I'm dying to see how *Jerry* does on those socks!
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It's pathological.
They're sick little puppies.
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Alison
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Marcel Beaudoin...
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Do you realize the dangers that can occur by using a leash improperly??
Alison...
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also as I said earlier, haltis can do damage too. The
quote is out of context. Janet
was implying if you are trained to use a shock collar you
Alison...
Alison...
Janet B...
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Now where does the PROPER USE OF A TENS MACHINE correlate to an
e-collar not being able to cause pain? The mind boggles......
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*cannot* hurt a dog with it.
It is capable of causing pain thus you *can* cause pain
with a shock collar.
Marcel Beaudoin...
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Not Janet that wrote that, it was me.
The point of my message was that you shouldn't judge a tool on it's
usefulness (or not) by how people who are inexperienced with it can misuse
it. You should judge its usefulness by how people who know what they are
doing use it properly.
Every training tool can be misused to cause damage to the dog.
Alison...
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dog.>>>
I *know* the point of your message , it's been said many
times and I'd like to discuss it with you later BUT it's
still irrelevant to the point I was trying to make and you
sent me two posts that were a wee bit sarcastic on the basis
that I was (in that part of the discussion ) judging whether
a certain tool should be used or not . I'm trying to explain
that's not what I was doing.
I don't have a programme that does those ids things so I'm
just going to give a quick recap.
I made a joke , I was trying to lighten the atmosphere ,
Handsome Jack Morrison...
Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Maybe the dog was just masking his pain, you know, because dogs are so
stoic, and pain tolerant? :)
Maybe he was licking you because he didn't want you to hurt him again?
Marcel Beaudoin...
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Since Janet was kind enough to do her own rotisserie action on the
pavement, it only makes sense that he thought she needed basting as well...
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Yeah, you're known around the world for your charm.
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Janet said she thought about using a collar on her bad knee
and I said Dibs (bagsy) I hold the remote heheh, implying I
could give her an electric shock . She said that I wouldn't
hurt her if I was properly trained to use it and I was
trying to convey that whether I was trained or not I
*could* cause her pain her if I wanted to, * if* I had the
intent. The reason I mentioned a tens machine is that while
I haven't experienced a shock by a shock collar, I have
with a Tens and feel the experience is comparable to it.
When I said those statements I didn't intend a serious
dicussion about whether a shock collar should be used or by
whom or the merits or drawbacks etc etc . This is nothing to
do with whether Joe Bloggs could hurt his dog with one.
I was just simply saying that if I was in a situation where
Janet had a shock collar on her and I had the remote *if* I
had the inclination, I could give her a high shock. Two
things are needed for me to give Janet a shock , a tool that
can give high shocks and my willingness to give her a shock.
While the thought is tempting , I can assure you that I
wouldn't .
That's all. I can't explain it any better than that.
Janet B...
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Tempting! Hmmmmm...
I think the point MANY of us are trying to make Alison, is ANY TOOL
Alison...
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Argghhh , I KNOW! I've never said otherwise.
Marcel Beaudoin...
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But the impression that your postings about ecollars give to the rest of us
is that you feel that they are barabaric and cruel because the potential
for their misuse (or improper use) is greater.[1] It may not be what you
Alison...
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If Janet had said she'd wanted to put a choke chain around
her leg , I'd have made the same type of remark about
chokes. ie Can I hold the lead.
Seeing as I didn't mention any other tools in that post
and Janet didn't mention using any other on her knee , I
don't see how you got that impression.
Y'know Janet , it would have saved a lot of time if you'd
just either made a joke back or said it wasn't funny or
appropriate .
shore...
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It's possible that you may be that rare individual whose
posts benefit from smilies, to help people find your jokes.
Alison...
Alison...
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I think the *heheh* in the post would be an indication
it was a joke.
shore...
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I read it as suggesting that you'd enjoy frying her and that
perhaps you thought that was funny. I put threat humor in
Alison...
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Really? But not jokes about terrorists or were you serious
when you wrote this-
shore...
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I was serious. I don't think that jokingly calling people
whose ideas you don't like "terrorists" is particularly
funny, either. Putting a smilie on something dumbassed
doesn't magically transform you into Margo Channing.
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"You have terrorists running classes? Who have they
murdered, and how many people have they kidnapped? Do
people have to promise fealty to a particular training
device to get their loved ones back? Do they bring weapons
to classes? Diddy brings weapons to classes - is she a
terrorist?"
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the same bin as toilet humor and racist humor. When you
take those things apart, the humor depends on a set of
assumptions. If you don't share those assumptions you don't
find those things funny.
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Why don't you pop down to the RPDB lost property office
and pick up the sense of humour you lost, you can collect
your brain at the same time.
That funny enough for you?
shore...
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No, not really. I thought it was funny on Arrested
Development last night when they had mock courts with Judge
Reinhold and Bud Cort, but I can't say I would think any
less of you for not finding that entertaining.
Alison...
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You watch Arrested Development? Seeing as you are so
fascinated with terrorists, I'd have thought American Dad
would be more up your street.
Alison
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Alison
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Alison
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feel, but that is the impression that you are getting.
[1] That is not to say that other tools are easier to use, just that, in my
opinion, E-collars are viewed by JQP as a "magic tool" that will work
wonders. (If it costs this much, it must be worth it!!!)
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Alison
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can be misused. I have seen people take their leather leashes and
whip a dog - that's pretty dramatic misuse of a common tool, yes? Or
let their dog become a bucking bronco on a head collar, or even, in
the most extreme cases, FAIL to TRAIN the dog AT ALL - which often
winds up with a meeting with the blue juice - the ultimate cruelty.
If you were so inclined, you can cause pain with just about anything.
Heck - the most seemingly benign inanimate objects in my home, often
jump out at me and cause me great pain and bruising. I'm sure they
are at fault, because it couldn't possibly be that *I* run into *them*
- and last time I checked, furniture doesn't feel much pain! ;-D
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Alison
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Marcel Beaudoin...
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Ignore my comment about not being Janet that made the comment. The screwy
formatting of your message made me misread that part.
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Alison
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Broken necks, wrenched backs. Please tell me that you, conscious of the
dangers of improperly used equipment on dogs, aren't using one of these
barbaric devices.
Janet B...
Alison...
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I have *no* idea The plots getting lost here . There's
been other posts with explanations so no point in trying to
entangle this . I think we should move on.
Alison
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You could strangulate your dog with a leash! Or use it to tie a
frou-frou bow on his back! The horrors of using something incorrectly
just go on and on!
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Alison
Mary Beth...
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ACHT, gimma a break jimmy!
Allison are you still the same one I've talked to about a TENS before?
I've been using a TENS for years, and I've NEVER 'locked my fingers up'.
Just how *careful* are you when it comes to your own health? If you are that
incompetent, I know you're not, if you're the same person, then you should
NEVER try an e-collar.
Marcel Beaudoin...
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I was replying to your statement where you said:
*****
Alison...
But shock
is a shock regardless of where it comes from and yes I do appreciate that
intensity of shocks vary, so because someone hasn't had a shock from a
collar doesn't mean to say they don't know what a shock feels like.
*****
Message-ID:
You start out saying that a shock is a shock, and then go on to say that
intensity matters, but then you finish off by saying that it doesn't, all
in one sentence!!
Alison...
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No I didn't. I didn't say intensity " matters." I said I appreciate that
intensity of shocks vary.
You said
******
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Alison...
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huge difference in how it feels.>
******
Yes I agree. This is stating the obvious. Both TENs and Shock collars have
a range of intensities on each machine/collar. That's why I added "and yes
I do appreciate that intensity of shocks vary,"
If I take that sentence out, it leaves -
" But shock is a shock regardless of where it comes from so because
someone hasn't had a shock from a collar doesn't mean to say they don't
know what a shock feels like."
If I used the word *but* instead of *so* would that be clearer.
If the intensities *are* the same , do you not think you can compare them
regardless of where they came from?
Alison
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I've never tried one either, but to seriously debate about a TENS being = to
an e-collar, it's what Janet just said, it's about the IMproper = you with
the TENS, and the proper use of an e-collar = something that others here
have used for years.
I've no experience with them, aside from the time I had such a loverly visit
with Jane Webb, and watched as her deaf dog could romp all around the *many
boulders* that make up her 'yard' with complete freedom. If Jane hadn't used
to e-collar, that dog would be confined to a leash at all times. She is
DEAF, can't hear a thing, nevermind all the work Jane puts into her dogs
with great training.
The dog CAN'T HEAR, but a little buzz, such as one would get from a *low*
setting on the TENS, will have her look up right away to follow Jane's hand
signals.
So, it's not that Jane hadn't trained her dog, she did come just fine off
leash, but if she CAN'T HEAR the request, how could she possibly LISTEN and
do as Jane asked.
I felt the e-collar, up there in Colorado, and it was a very low TENS
setting. Perhaps you don't have any idea of just how beautiful and ROCKY the
area is around her home, she lives on the side of a mountain, with large
boulders all around. She has also used her e-collars to snake proof her
dogs.
When England grows mountains as high and steep and craggly, and you move
there, then perhaps you would maybe understand more. (Oh and if you remember
I'm Scottish and know we have many craggly somewhat high *hills*, but it's
not where you live.)
I know you Allison, you're not dumb, you just have this blanket statement
against these collars, and mostly from arguing with others on their correct
use.
I would never get into that arguement as I personally have no need for them,
nor experience with them, in my training schedule. I'm not taking sides here
on either, as many of these ppl you are so brainwashed against, no matter
what they say, are good ppl and they know how to use them.
But when you bring in something *I* have experience in, i.e. the TENS, I
must say, if you've frozen your fingers with it, then you are NOT paying
attention, and should think about using something else. It has worked for me
for about 20 years, and yes, I've turned it up a little BIT, but never had
the experience you say you've had.
Sincerely,
MaryBeth :)
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Rocky...
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Haven't I told my TENS story before? I broke a bone in my hand,
Janet B...
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NO! Or I forgot it - one of the two!
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it was set improperly, I had to have ligament surgery and then
therapy.
A couple of us used to sit around the table and fiddle with our
TENS controls. Admittedly, it wasn't pleasant when set to the
max, but it wasn't painful. All it did was constrict the
muscles - and it's certainly unpleasant to not have control over
those muscles. But there was no pain. Of course, this was also
an extreme application of the device.
Janet B...
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Umm. wouldn't that be "improper use"? LOL. Unpleasant and painful
are definitely not synonymous - thanks for being a guinea pig!
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The worst part of the TENS? Anticipation that the stim was
coming.
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Marcel Beaudoin...
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How do you get along in the world with all those things out there that can
cause pain??
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Alison
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Alison...
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That was a joke, I was teasing.
Handsome Jack Morrison...
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Yeah. Riiiight.
And there's no bodies buried in your crawl space either...
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Alison
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White Monkey...
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It's British, a formation of "bags I". It correlates to "dibs on".
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WOW - neither have ANY of the 8 week old puppies I've ever had here
(it's been many more than 2 sweetie). Franklin's little habit didn't
begin until a few more months in, and you still have absolutely NO
idea what you're talking about. 8 week old puppies pretty much sleep.
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Janet B...
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What would those things be? 8 weeks old? Come back when he's 8
months.
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Janet B...
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Not petting them - JUST petting them.
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form a loop then attached a leash. Simple enough. But all the chains
Sionnach...
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Erm - then you thought incorrectly, and you never looked very closely at a
choke collar.
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in pet stores around here have the same sized rings on both ends of the
Sionnach...
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That's how plain slip/choke collars have always been made.
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chain so there's no way to pass one through the other to form the loop.
What am I missing? How does a choke chain work when both rings are
the same size?
Sionnach...
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Again, that's the normal way for them to be made.
Attach your leash to one end of the collar. Then, hold the unattached ring
down low in one hand, hold the other ring higher up in the other hand, and
drop the chain down through the lower ring, forming a loop; the upper ring
is not *supposed* to pass through the lower, as that would allow the collar
to slide up the leash.
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Janet B...
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You drop the chain backwards through one ring.
Suja...
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And it is worth mentioning that there is a right way and a wrong way to put
it on a dog, and that there is a right way and a wrong way to use it once it
is on the dog.
Suja (who had the same question)
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TIA,
Neal B.
John Wesley...
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I agree 130%!
Putting a noose on a dog is pretty dang harsh!
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Richmond, VA
lucyaafar...
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Dear Neal,
Thank you for starting this very interesting thread. Just curious, what
are you trying to teach your dog with a choke chain?
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