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Animal Welfare or "animal rights"?
Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:40:33 -0500
rec.pets.dogs.behavior
previous
nopEda...
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On 28 Mar 2006, Goobernicus Gonad wondered:
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nopEda...
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They're the enemies of the livestock group(s), Goob. Just as
something that wants to deliberately eliminate the human race
could be thought of as an enemy of humans, "aras" who want
to deliberately eliminate domestic animals can be thought of as
an enemy of domestic animals.
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"One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic
animals. They are creations of human selective breeding...We have no ethical
obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through
selective breeding." (Wayne Pacelle, HSUS, former director of the Fund for
Animals, Animal People, May 1993)
[...]
Tom Regan, Animal Rights Author and Philosopher, North Carolina State
University
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"It is not larger, cleaner cages that justice demands...but empty cages."
(Regan, The Philosophy of Animal Rights, 1989)
http://www.agcouncil.com/leaders.htm
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AVMA POLICY ON ANIMAL WELFARE AND ANIMAL RIGHTS
Animal welfare is a human responsibility that encompasses all aspects of
animal well being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease
prevention and treatment, responsible care, humane handling, and, when
necessary, humane euthanasia.
Animal rights is a philosophical view and personal value characterized by
statements by various animal rights groups. Animal welfare and animal rights
are not synonymous terms. The AVMA wholeheartedly endorses and adopts
promotion of animal welfare as official policy; however, the AVMA cannot
endorse the philosophical views and personal values of animal rights advocates
when they are incompatible with the responsible use of animals for human
purposes, such as companionship, food, fiber, and research conducted for the
benefit of both humans and animals.
http://www.avma.org/policies/animalwelfare.asp
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[...]
"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about
by human manipulation." -- Ingrid Newkirk, national director,
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Just Like Us?
Toward a Nation of Animal Rights" (symposium), Harper's, August
1988, p. 50.
"Liberating our language by eliminating the word 'pet' is the
first step... In an ideal society where all exploitation and
oppression has been eliminated, it will be NJARA's policy to
oppose the keeping of animals as 'pets.'" --New Jersey Animal
Rights Alliance, "Should Dogs Be Kept As Pets? NO!" Good Dog!
February 1991, p. 20.
"Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete
jungles--from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains
by which we enslave it." --John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An
Examination of A Changing Ethic (Washington, DC: People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), 1982), p. 15.
"The cat, like the dog, must disappear... We should cut the
domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and
more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to
exist." --John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of A
Dave...
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Please stop lying about me.
dh...
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I sure know that feeling. So what are you saying I'm lying about?
Dave...
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I don't pretend to be in favour of decent AW. I am in favour of decent
dh...
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Oh? Are you just pretending to pretend?
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dh...
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LOL. How could we provide decent AW for livestock, if we take
your suggestion to eliminate them so that supposedly more
wildlife could live where they had been?
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AW.
I don't oppose giving consideration to the lives of livestock while
encourgaing
consideration of potential widlife. I oppose giving consideration to
dh...
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That is ALL I've known you to do in regards to that aspect. I
have not known you to support livestock of wildlife in any way,
ever.
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dh...
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You oppose giving consideration to both, when it leads to the
conclusion that it's okay to continue raising livestock.
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one and not
the other.
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Changing Ethic (Washington, DC: People for the Ethical Treatment
of Animals (PeTA), 1982), p. 15.
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"The theory of animal rights simply is not consistent with the
theory of animal welfare... Animal rights means dramatic social
changes for humans and non-humans alike; if our bourgeois values
prevent us from accepting those changes, then we have no right to
call ourselves advocates of animal rights." --Gary Francione,
The Animals' Voice, Vol. 4, No. 2 (undated), pp. 54-55.
"Not only are the philosophies of animal rights and animal
welfare separated by irreconcilable differences... the enactment
of animal welfare measures actually impedes the achievement of
animal rights... Welfare reforms, by their very nature, can only
serve to retard the pace at which animal rights goals are
achieved." --Gary Francione and Tom Regan, "A Movement's Means
Create Its Ends," The Animals' Agenda, January/February 1992,
pp. 40-42.
[...]
http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~powlesla/personal/hunting/rights/pets.txt
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There's more to it than that, but if you can't get that far then
considering details would be of no use to you. For anyone who can
understand though, it's good to keep in mind the huge difference
between decent Animal Welfare and the gross misnomer "animal
rights".
People who are in favor of decent AW for any--and especially
for all--domestic animals should be *very much* opposed to the
"ar" objective to eliminate them. That much everyone should be
able to understand.
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nopEda...
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We're talking about "animal rights" activists here Goo, not all
vegetarians. "aras" would *kill* livestock Goober. Just as they
kill unwanted pets:
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In a July 2000 Associated Press story, reporter Matthew Barakat described
government reports showing that PETA itself killed 1,325 -- or 63 percent --
of the dogs and cats entrusted to it in 1999. The state of Virginia expected
those animals to be placed in adoptive homes. Only 386 of them ever were.
[...]
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http://www.nfss.org/Legis/Peta-AA/pet-4.html
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From July 1998 through the end of 2003, PETA killed over 10,000 dogs, cats,
and other "companion animals" -- at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. That's
more than five defenseless animals every day. Not counting the dogs and
cats PETA spayed and neutered, the group put to death over 85 percent of
the animals it took in during 2003 alone. And its angel-of-death pattern shows
no sign of changing.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaKillsAnimals.cfm
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they would kill livestock as well:
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Web posted Friday, April 27, 2001
State Veterinarian, PETA Head Differ On Outbreak
[...]
On Thursday, Ingrid Newkirk, president of People for the Ethical Treatment
of Animals, renewed her claim that an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease
in the United States would benefit herds by sparing them from a tortured
existence and the slaughterhouse.
A PETA spokesman said it's inconceivable that anyone would fail to see
the sense of Newkirk's statements, which have rankled politicians and
livestock farmers from Texas to Canada.
[...]
rupertmccallum...
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What on earth is the point of this quote supposed to be?
dh...
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Usually I don't include it but this time I just didn't bother to snip
it out. Since it's there and you reacted to it, would you care to
explain why you reacted to that particular quote?
rupertmccallum...
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The point of the quote was supposed to be that animal rights activists
are not sentimental animal-lovers. Neither are animal welfarists. I
couldn't imagine what the relevance of the quote was supposed to be to
your case, so I asked.
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In a telephone interview from Richmond, Va., Newkirk reiterated her
hope that foot-and-mouth -- which has ravaged herds in Europe -- reaches
U.S. shores.
''It's a peculiar and disturbing thing to say, but it would be less than truthful
if I pretended otherwise,'' she said.
People would be better off without meat because it is tied to a host of
ailments, Newkirk said. And animals would benefit because the current
means of raising and slaughtering livestock are ''grotesquely cruel from
start to finish.''
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rupertmccallum...
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No they wouldn't. They're just opposed to exploiting them.
dh...
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Try to think. Since they kill dogs and cats, they would kill livestock
frlpwr...
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Who are "they"? I'm an "ara" and I don't kill dogs, cats or any other
animals
unless they suffer from painful, untreatable illnesses or injuries.
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frlpwr...
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Fundamental to a belief in animal rights is the duty to protect all
existing animals
and to give the best possible care to existing domestic animals. (Note
to Meatwad
Ball: This is why PETA's stand on feral cats is philosophically
inconsistent.)
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Dave...
frlpwr...
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Who are "they"? I'm an "ara" and I don't kill dogs, cats or any other
animals
unless they suffer from painful, untreatable illnesses or injuries.
dh...
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How do you kill them when they do?
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frlpwr...
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Fundamental to a belief in animal rights is the duty to protect all
existing animals
and to give the best possible care to existing domestic animals. (Note
dh...
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One of your heros--who speaks for all of you--thinks that animals
Dave...
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Newkirk does not represent all vegans. She presents her
dh...
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She represents more of them than you do.
Dave...
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That's true. She represents one (herself). I represent none.
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own opinions and frl... is free to agree or disagree as
(s)he chooses.
dh...
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She does a lot more than just present her own opinions.
dh...
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"I would go to work early, before anyone got there, and I would just kill the
animals myself. Because I couldn't stand to let them go through other workers
abusing the animals. I must have killed thousands of them, sometimes dozens
everyday."
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would "benefit" from foot-and-mouth disease!
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Web posted Friday, April 27, 2001
State Veterinarian, PETA Head Differ On Outbreak
[...]
Dave...
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Dave...
On Thursday, Ingrid Newkirk, president of People for the Ethical Treatment
of Animals, renewed her claim that an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease
in the United States would benefit herds by sparing them from a tortured
existence and the slaughterhouse.
A PETA spokesman said it's inconceivable that anyone would fail to see
the sense of Newkirk's statements, which have rankled politicians and
livestock farmers from Texas to Canada.
[...]
In a telephone interview from Richmond, Va., Newkirk reiterated her
Dave...
hope that foot-and-mouth -- which has ravaged herds in Europe -- reaches
U.S. shores.
Dave...
Dave...
''It's a peculiar and disturbing thing to say, but it would be less than truthful
if I pretended otherwise,'' she said.
People would be better off without meat because it is tied to a host of
ailments, Newkirk said. And animals would benefit because the current
Dave...
means of raising and slaughtering livestock are ''grotesquely cruel from
start to finish.''
[...]
http://www.pressanddakotan.com/stories/042701/new_0427010026.html
Dave...
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Dave...
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You think people with that type of belief, who kill hundreds (thousands
more likely) of dogs and cats, would be opposed to doing the same to
livestock? LOL! They sure have you fooled. But how did they fool you?
What could they have said or done to get you to believe they would
Dave...
somehow be sure that all livestock got to live out a long life, and who do
you think would pay for it, donate the land to keep them on, and do the
Dave...
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Do you think most ARAs accept your premise that land rightfully
belongs to humans in the first place?
Dave...
dh...
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I haven't discussed it with any, but imagine that most of them would say
their land belongs to them. How they twist it around that someone else's
land doesn't belong to him, I'm interested to see.
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actual work of caring for them? How would you/"they" justify maintaining
Dave...
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All "primitive" breeds of chickens, cows, horses, sheep or any other
"livestock" animal need is sufficient amounts of appropriate habitat
and they can look after themselves.
dh...
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I won't take your word for it, and don't believe it would be ethically
Dave...
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Name one factor that it is (a) necessary for their survival and (b)
can be provided only by humans.
dh...
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In the case of chickens, food and protection from predators in
most cases. I've never heard of long term populations of domestic
chickens surviving anywhere, and feel quite confident that you
can't provide examples of any. And even if you can--which is
very unlikely--you would need to explain *WHY?* we should try
to create the same sort of situation anywhere that people are
currently raising chickens, which is something else you're unable
to do.
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superior to humans raising them.
Dave...
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the livestock, when the land could supposedly be used to provide life for
wildlife instead?
Dave...
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As soon as the "livestock" stop being farmed, they become "wildlife"
by definition.
dh...
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Not the ones who die.
Dave...
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The point is there is no difference between the inherent properties of
wildlife animals and livestock animals. The terms simply describe their
relationship to humans.
dh...
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As I point out: you're still not capable of considering whether or
not it's cruel to animals to raise them for food, and most likely you
never will be.
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to Meatwad
Ball: This is why PETA's stand on feral cats is philosophically
inconsistent.)
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too. They probably started the latest European outbreak of foot and
mouth disease, since a container of it just happened to turn up
missing right before the outbreak. LOL, and if that's not suspicious
enough, we have Newkirk herself admitting that she "thinks" US
cattle would benefit from getting sick with it too! You people are not
sane.
rupertmccallum...
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I'm not sure exactly what PETA's position on euthanasia is - I could
try and find out for you. Animal rights activists do support euthanasia
for animals who are so sick that their lives will be utterly miserable.
dh...
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It seems anyone in favor of doing so for animals who can't decide
one way or the other, should at least be in favor of it for humans who
can decide what they want.
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I'm not sure whether some employees of PETA went beyond that. If they
did, they probably did something which you wouldn't really say is
consistent with an animal rights position. There's no reason to think
animal rights activists would be in favour of killing livestock.
dh...
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As yet there is only reason to believe they would. If you can provide
reason to believe they would not, then please include how they would
deal with them along with your example(s).
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dh...
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Yeah, and I'm sure they're opposed to exploiting dogs and cats
too, but that doesn't stop them from killing dogs and cats just as they
would kill livestock.
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http://www.pressanddakotan.com/stories/042701/new_0427010026.html
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Try to get it straight.
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