Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's first
obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain

t...

Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
they try to strain at the chain.

Paul E. Schoen...

With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his

flick...

This isn't how to use a prong collar. See your trainer.

nose somewhere.

ib...

I watched a trainer take care of that with a couple similarly strong
willed dogs with a few "OUT!" corrections delivered well, and with a
quick and simple praise when they stopped the offending behavior.

It's possible that by kneeling down next to him and attempting to
settle him that you may be unwittingly encouraging the behavior that
led you to comfort it.

collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
me and the commands he was given. Also, he managed to make it pop open and

t...

Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.

Paul E. Schoen...

The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.

ib...

Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
fact may have led to the release of the clasp.

it had to be refastened.

t...

Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
middle of the collar will fix that.

Paul E. Schoen...

Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
a pair of links, not at the clip.

ib...

Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?

the.longest.username.available...

Actually, using a prong collar with a separate oversized collar such as

Sionnach...

My extraordinarily sensitive lurcher - she can be likened to the
princes in "The Princess and The Pea" - begs to differ with you. She found a
prong collar to be No Big Deal, and a head collar to be an instrument of
torture.
I'll take my dog's word over that of a stranger on USENET, any day.

For that matter, I'll take the word of reputable vets and veterinary
chiropracters as regards the physical injuries that even PROPER use of a
head collar can and does cause.

TaraG...

As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods, I think this type of
thinking is narrowminded, and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about
equipment.

And I say this as someone who hasn't used a prng collar in over 4 years.

Paul E. Schoen...

I would like to know more about positive training methods.

[snip]

By the way, most Behaviorists don't also call themselves Dog Trainers. I was
looking into becoming a Behaviorist, but I couldn't justify the extra years
of schooling, so I stuck with Dog Trainer. Where did you go for your
Behavioral Degree?

TaraG...

This is bizarre. You have no idea what problems this guy has been having
with his dog. You have no idea how much actual work he is willing to (or in
a position to) put into this dog. You have no idea what factors went into
that decision. And yet you feel comfortable making a categorical statement

Paul E. Schoen...

I appreciate all of your comments on alternate equipment and methods for my
reluctant initiation into the world of dog training. I can see that there
are some very strong opposing viewpoints, and all probably have some
validity. I would like to get good results fairly quickly without investing
too much time and effort, partly because I am overwhelmed with other issues
at this time, and also because I hope to be able to give Muttley to a new
owner who can invest the needed time and (tough) love required. It becomes
increasingly hard for me to consider giving him to someone else, as I
continue to bond with him and see his progress and experience his affection
for me.

like that?

Wow.

a choke chain is very common when working with dominant/aggressive
dogs. Reason being prong collars can pop apart if force is exerted
just right on them by a powerful dog. I don't usually use the prong
collar on my dog, but I highly recommend them as I found it
instrumental initially with my dog. Once in a while I will throw it
back on him, but if it is in public I always have a separate oversized
slip collar also attached to the leash. You don't want the second

TaraG...

Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon slip,
to be specific)
A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the use
of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.

flick...

I've never had a prong collar fail like this. The ones I have, if you want

Suja...

I have. The first time it happened, it wasn't backed up, but Khan didn't
really do anything with his new found freedom, and I was able to just hook
it back on. The second time, it was backed up onto a non-slip collar.

to remove a link you've got to squeeze the prongs together with pliers and
pull hard to get it separate.

Suja...

I'll admit that I'm not the strongest person in the world and it takes some
effort for me to un-link the prongs, but I've never had to resort to pliers.

TaraG...

With pliers? Every time you put it on and take it off? I doubt that. They
can be tough, but no company I'm aware of makes them impossible for human
hands to use.

flick...

I forget that not everybody has my hand strength problems. My bad.

It happens maybe one in every hundred or so dogs....but in NYC, that's often
enough to warrant the backup system, because that one dog can end up running
straight into traffic.

flick...

What I use for a backup with the Saint is this harness thing that tends to
lift up his front end if he pulls hard, or at least puts pressure there.
One leash to that, one leash to the prong collar, they're in different

TaraG...

They also scare the crap out of plenty of dogs. Which is why I stopped using
them regularly shortly after I stopped using the prong. All thing being
equal, I actually found that the DOGS usually took to the prong a lot more
easily than they took to the head collar.

Paul E. Schoen...

[snip]

When judging the cruelty/kindness factor of a method or piece of equipment,
I like to make sure I'm using the actual DOG as the barometer....not what
*I* would prefer. They are often different answers. I saw far too many dogs
panic when the owners would (understandably) rush the adjustment process.
And, I'm sorry, but any piece of equipment that takes up to two weeks to get
a dog to accept is NOT intrinsically kinder.

TaraG...

You haven't worked with that many dogs with spacial issues if you think
that's how it always works. There are plenty of dogs that need slow
desensitization for a week or more before they're comfortable enough to have
pressure applied to their snouts.

Paul E. Schoen...

[snip]

places and don't get tangled. I don't use the backup very often any more,
though, myself. The kids do, as extra insurance. He's well trained now,
but I prefer not to bet his life on that in certain circumstances.

elegy...

two leashes sounds awfully cumbersome. especially since i walk two

flick...

Then it must be my lousy hands :-(.

flick 100785

dogs at once. a nylon slip is just much much easier for me.

i've only had a pinch collar fail once, and it was the first time i

Sionnach...

I've had one BREAK, and it wasn't a cheap one, either; the ring the leash
was attached to pulled out straight. I suspect the maker ASSumed that any
dog small enough to need a micro-prong wouldn't have significant strength.

used it (not the first time i used a pinch collar, just this specific
collar). one of the prongs was squeezed too narrow. it was easy enough
to fix, but it was a wake-up call.

flick 100785

collar to administer a correction, it is simply there so you don't lose
control of your dog in case the prong collar comes apart.

This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of heavier
gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded, which I think
should pose less chance of damage than the more roughly cut ends of the
smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when I pick him up from a friend
who has been keeping him while I've been out of town.

The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which

t...

Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.

Paul E. Schoen...

This was a middle aged woman at a Tractor Supply Company store, which
specializes in rural animal needs. She may have been the same one who

TaraG...

Its definitely NOT a "recipe for disaster". In my opinion, using a prong
collar solo without any sort of safety mechanism for if/when the collar
opens on its own is a "recipe" of its own.

To the OP (Paul), while I don't go to the prong collar as a first option, I
also find that enough dogs have issues with head collars that Muttley might
have to tell you which one he a) responds to most quickly and b) prefers
(and, yes, this is second in priority). The larger prongs might not be the
best idea....and I have yet to see the rounded nubs help *anything* besides
the owner's conscience. The dog pulls harder, and then ultimately learns to
pull *through* the prong with those plugs at the end. Again, you'll find out
when its actually *on* Muttley, and when your trainer has a chance to see
you guys in action in person.

I did have to interject when I saw the above statements from Todd, though.

warned me to watch my dog when he chewed on rawhide pieces. Muttley is very
careful (and efficient) when he eats them.

Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I

Mary H Healey...

My dogs are all neutered males. Difficult for them to whelp for any
reason, really.

Sionnach...

Prong collars can be useful tools, but they don't perform miracles... which
would include causing a neutered male dog to give birth.

Paul E. Schoen...

But, maybe he will have an "Immaculate Contraption"? :)

(From a list of real responses of Catholic school kids)

know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
new handler?

Paul E. Schoen...

Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.

ib...

Sounds reasonable. He sounds like a beast. :-)

appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is

Rocky...

I once ran into a clerk like that at a pet store when I bought a
pinch collar. I spent a few minutes telling him stuff that he
should have already known.

If *any* training collar is to be sold in a pet supply store,
it'd be nice if the staff was knowledgeable as to their use.

labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

t...

I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
I'd say.

Paul E. Schoen...

The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring

Mary H Healey...

More accurately, if you control the dog's brain (in the sense of having his
attention and focus), you control the dog.

pfoley...

===============
Never, there was never any pain inflicted on the dog from the prong collar.
The fact that she knew, if I tightened up a little it could pinch her, she
would behave. I hardly ever use the link collar anymore now. I use just
the leash and the collar, and if I find myself getting into a sticky
situation, I remove her leather leash, make a noose out of the handle end
and slip that over her neck, then hold it up by her ears for control until
the situation has passed. But, it depends where I am planning on going with
her, or who I am walking with if I use the link collar or not. When I walk
in the forest each day, I walk her on leash with just her leather collar for
awhile, and then most of the time she is off leash. If she were dog
aggressive, I would always use the prong collar, but she is not that type
of dog. I used to use the prong collar more when walking my other Rottie,
as I was never sure what her reaction would be when meeting another dog;
some she would like and others she would not, and I never knew how it would
go, so I needed more control of her, and I never let her off leash other
than in the yard. If I do use the prong collar, I remove it after walking;
I never leave it on the dog.

his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
the choker chain.

flick...

The last time I took a dog through a formal beginner's obedience class was
decades ago. We ALL had prong collars on our dogs.

You control the dog through its training. I think a Halti is useful as an
emergency control measure, or if you've got a particularly powerful dog,
until the dog is trained. To me, a Halti is not a training tool.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Not in my opinion.

He's collar shopping without any input from his trainer? How smart is
that?

He's also obviously expecting the collar itself to be some kind of
silver bullet. I can almost hear his gears grinding from here: "Gee,
if I can just find the right kind of collar, Muttley will transform
himself into Lassie overnight! I'll be the toast of the town!"

It's not the freakin' collar! It's never the freakin' collar!

It's the TRAINING. It's always the TRAINING.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.

He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.

What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him

Janet B...

he's not. Maybe the problem with free offers - people don't take the
advice seriously?

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Oh, I forgot.

how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?

Jeff Dege...

Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on
dogs - when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

But that's for his *trainer* to decide, not Shoen.

Janet is in the best position to SHOW Schoen how to properly fit any
collar, to use it properly, and to SHOW him how to do all of the
above.

And hopefully without any interference from a lady who sells dog food
for a living.

Thus far, Schoen sounds exactly like Leah Redux (presuming that you
know who Leah is.)

If you have a trainer who is watching the dog, to see how he responds to
various training tools, great. If not, you're going to have to watch the
dog yourself.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Schoen knows so little about dogs, dog behavior, and dog training,
that he's not in a position right now to determine much of anything by
simply watching his dog.

Schoen should rely on Janet's experience, knowledge, ability (all of
which are considerable), or he should get himself another trainer.

Too many cooks spoil the broth, and too many trainers ruin the dog.

Especially when one of those "trainers" sells dog food for a living.

Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.
They teach people how to train their own dogs.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

And if you're going to pay them your hard-earned mony to do that, it
behooves you to listen to them, not your dog.

And certainly not to a lady who sells dog food for a living.

The trainer is a resource. An important and valuable resource, or your
wasting your money, but only one resource of many.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

It's the *primary* resource, and s/he deserves the clients undivided
attention.

If Schoen then becomes unhappy with the progress or the results, find
another trainer.

Janet B...

yup. I'll go see Paul tomorrow evening.

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Yabbut, the lady who sells dog food for a living will have already
shown him everything he needs to know, dontcha know.

He's already anthropomorphizing the prong collar, by thinking that the
kind with smooth tips will somehow be more "kind" to his dog, etc. And
he's also listening to people who sell dog food for a living, instead
of listening to people who actually train dogs for a living.

How smart is that?

I think Janet (as his trainer, I presume) should get control of
Muttley's *owner* first, before worrying about ol' Muttley.

Janet B...

I'm not teaching his class unfortunately (Paul, you can switch to

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Yes, that is unfortunate.

Janet B...

I'm trying to remedy that, one way or another.

Mondays if you prefer). I really need to see Muttley around other
dogs, and Paul's handling of him.

Yep, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to

Janet B...

I personally don't like them, mainly because many dogs really hate
them. As far as humane, that's the answer you'll get from PM (but
note that they SELL prong collars anyway). They can work well for
some dogs, but are much more of a MANAGEMENT tool than a training
tool. They can also be rather dangerous, and IMO are inhumane for
dogs who sut down on them.

Paul...

I have not tried the Halti yet, and I think I got a size too large. The
large prong collar seems to work OK, now that I have removed two links

pfoley...

The

and put it on him properly. However, the first night's initial apparent
success may have been because he was tired and mellow after a full day
with Doyle, and getting back home. Now he seems to be quite happy to
pull on it to the point where he is gasping, at least on the first part
of his walk. He settles down after he has sniffed out the scents of the
squirrels, deer, cat, and whatever, and will more readily walk with a
fairly loose leash, and even heel a bit.

It seems like now the prong collar may not be fully effective because
it presses on his wide nylon tag collar, and maybe also gets tangled in
the choker chain, although I do not have it connected to the leash. The
bigger prong collar seems robust enough to hold him without coming
undone, but I'd feel better with a backup. Maybe it would be better to
use a nylon slip collar as a backup, and remove all others when
training.

Hopefully all this can be worked out at the class tomorrow night (it
probably just seemed like 20 dogs). I am willing to listen to
suggestions from all, and this discussion has been interesting and
helpful, but also shows that there are diverse views. I will primarily
try to use Janet's suggestions, as she has been kind enough to offer
her services to help Muttley be more adoptable.

Actually, he and Photon may finally be getting used to each other. I
was able to pet her for a little while when she emerged from hiding, at
the same time petting Muttley and keeping a hand on his collar (not
easy with only two hands), and he was quick to settle down after she
ran off. I can probably work out a way for them to coexist safely. If
Muttley's only fault is straining on the leash, I can probably live
with that, although I'm sure most of that will be corrected by
training. It actually makes it easier for me to make it up the steep
trail on my property. Maybe I'll just get him a harness and I'll ride
behind him in a goat cart! :)

do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
future adoption.

t...

The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
sized correctly.

Good luck with the training!

Best Regards,

Paul E. Schoen...

pfoley...

==========
I would think the choke chain would be in the way of the prong collar all
the time and thus preventing the prong collar to work correctly. I don't
understand why you need the choke chain; I used to just use my dog's regular
collar along with the prong collar and made sure the prong collar was above
the top of the collar; not on it or below it. Don't hesitate to speak up
and ask the trainer questions; sometimes they have so many people in their
classes, you can easily get ignored.

the.longest.username.available...

If I was going to use a choke chain as a backup it wouldn't get tangled
in the prong collar. The prong collar should fit snug enough that it
rides at the top of his neck near his head. Choke chains, because of
how they are slid over their head should ride lower than that naturally
and not get tangled. As for the license collar, I would either have a
loose one that rides low down with the choke chain or take it off and
carry it in my pocket while training. I use a loose license collar
that I can tighten if I am using it for restraint so he can not pull
out of it as easily. Here is a good website that shows how to properly
fit a prong collar including pictures as well as pictures of using a
nylon slip collar as a backup.
http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

pfoley...

======
Well, in my case, the trainer wanted me to have an attachment going from the
leash to the license collar as a backup, so I needed the the collar along
with the prong collar. They don't like you to have the dog without its
license collar on in case it gets loose.

the.longest.username.available...

I see how the attachment would work, and I agree with it as an
acceptable backup. It is just my opinion it complicates the matter
more than is needed. But I would still loosen the collar while
training so that it rides underneath the prong or else it will most
likely cause issues with the prong, preventing it from working
correctly. I understand why trainers wouldn't want a loose dog without
it's license on, but it seems to me if you properly fit the prong
collar and use a backup you won't end up with a dog getting loose. But
hey, whatever your trainer says, that is what you should do. I only
work with a trainer for desensitizing my dog agressive dog, as well as
for heavy distractions while working my obedience program with him so
for the most part I do what I believe is best for my dog, although I do
consult with trainers whose opinions I consider worthwile.

the.longest.username.available...

Oh, and his recommendation to use a remote collar at the bottom of that
page... that is for a specific dog with specific circumstances. He
does not recommend them for all dogs, in fact he typically recommends
the prong collar. Just thought I would point that out in case someone
who didn't know read the entire page, because I could see how they
would interpret that he would use an e-collar on every dog.

pfoley...

=====================
Thanks, I found that very interesting.

Mighty Mite...

It's funny but the "halti" and "prong" collars both have their "camps"
and each promotes their own training aid of choice as the more "human"
method. Suzanne Clothier wrote an article on the net about how she

TaraG...

I have, at one point or another, been in each camp. Now I feel they both
have their place. I also feel that place is a lot more limited (for *both*
pieces of equipment) than I used to.

bethgsd...

Tara and I have pretty different training styles but we both agree on
that.

will not use a halti because of the dangers of snapping a dog's neck
back but favors prong collars because they are, in her opinion, kinder
than chokes. A few years ago, The Whole Dog Journal came out with an
article advocating the use of a sensor harness instead of a halti
(while I went to a seminar by famed sports Vet Dr. Chris Zinc who is
very much against the use of these harnesses!). To be perfectly

TaraG...

After seeing this post, I googled Chris Zinc and harness, and only got one
hit that referred to the same opinion, but also in the third person without
any sensible explanation as to why. Could you elaborate on this? I've been
using these harnesses for a coupleof years now, and while they're not
appropriate for all dogs, they work pretty well, IMO.

bethgsd...

I've seen the harnesses used and misused. They seem to fill a need for
some dog owners. I've never had to use one and since I track with my
dogs, probably never would.

honest, regardless of the method you use, your dog should learn to heel
WITHOUT ANY COLLAR. That's the mark of a dog who is truly trained. I

TaraG...

Of course it is. But note the tense "ed" as in "already trained". Getting
there (as in "my dog is in trainING") is what collars and leads are for.

bethgsd...

Amen to that sister.

Beth

taught my dog to heel using a target stick similar to what Wilkes uses.
I invite you to check out the Mighty Mite Small Dog Sports Forum -
we've discussed these related issues at length:

TaraG...

Great. If you have a way to apply that sort of thing to dogs that live in
NYC please let me in on it :-)

Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
while.

ib...

Yeah you've probably got your work cut out for you, but from what I've
seen in the 10wk obedience class recently finished, you should be
seeing some impressive results if you put in the daily work with him
and learn the handling techniques, timing of corrections, when not to
give eye contact, and all that jazz. It sounds like your dog needs
to learn that he the lowest number on the totem pole at your house,
and that when you're training, he needs to be focused on his new pack
leader, and that pulling like that is simply not acceptable behavior.

With enough correction, and well-timed genuine praise immediatley
after he breaks off the bad behavior, he will eventually "get" that
the place to be is at your heel and that bad things happen when he
starts to pull.

Best Regards,

pfoley...

===========
I am not going to suggest to you which collar to use; you will have to find
out for yourself which works best for you and your dog, but I don't think I
would take the advice of the store clerk. The clerk might think the prong
collar is cruel and painful, which it is not. When I took my Rottie to
training class, my trainer told me not to ever use a choke chain, as they
can damage a dog's throat from the dog constantly pulling on it, and to use
a large link prong collar. He demonstrated on himself that it was not
dangerous to the dog, by pulling hard on his arm and releasing. The idea of
the prong collar is a quick tug and quick release. It does have to fit
properly or it will fall off. Sometimes, all it needs is for one link to be
squeezed and tightened a little. The prongs are all removeable. He also
told me to take a six inch piece of cotton clothesline rope and attach a
snap latch on each end, to be attached from the leash to the dog's leather
collar, (common materials found in a hardware store) not to a choke chain.
A couple of times the prong collar did open up and fall off, but since I had
the attachment from the leash to the leather collar, she was still on the
leash. I did tighten the prong collar after it fell off and did not have
that problem again. I don't even use the little attachment any longer; I
only used it while training her. I have never tried that other collar the
clerk talked about on my present Rotty, but I do know that some dogs hate
them and some others will finally get used to them after a lot of balking.
I tried one of those on my previous Rott, but she was able to remove it in
seconds and that was the end of that idea; I then returned to the prong
collar. I don't know what a small pinch collar is, but I would think a
large powerful dog could break it easily; I don't know that for sure, as I

Paul E. Schoen...

Well, I got Muttley back from my friend Doyle, who said he was very good in
almost every way, except that he was very hard to control when outside on a
walk. He would pull hard on the choker collar when he wanted to go after a
squirrel or just to follow his nose. Doyle was able to give him a bath with

Handsome Jack Morrison...

For crissakes, and for the sake of poor ol' Muttley, stop using the

TaraG...

Or he could use a sensation/easy walk type harness so as not to freak out
his dog by putting scary things on his nose. Or he could do what he's doing
since there's a trainer (who is apparently pretty good and has been posting
here for *years*, with real live students who have also posted here) who has
actually laid hands on this dog and who has observed the interactions and
behaviors first hand.

Paul E. Schoen...

Yes, you probably know that I am going to classes generously offered by
Janet for no charge, provided that I intend to offer him for adoption. At
the class last week, she was not there, and the instructor suggested and
supplied the small prong collar, which required adding extra prongs to fit
around Muttley's large neck. I could see some improvement, but then I also
had the problem where the collar came loose. The other instructor said that
Janet believes the smaller prongs work better, but she personally thinks
the larger prongs are better for some larger dogs like her St Bernard.
Janet will be there this Tuesday and hopefully we can decide what may work
best. I'll try the new collars tonight when I get Muttley back, and get a
feel for his reactions. Unfortunately I was away for a few days and did not
have time to fully evaluate the smaller prong collar. It may also not be
good to try the collars too soon after he returns to me. He may need a day
to readjust.

While there are plenty of tools I would probably never see the need to use
on a dog, the call to ban certain those things just to mollify those who
don't understand them is beyond me.

Paul E. Schoen...

Hopefully you all can see that I am trying to do what is in Muttley's best
interests, as well as trying to maintain my own sanity. He is a smart,
lovable dog, and after six months he has become a very special friend.
However, he really deserves a home where he can run in a fenced area, with
a more energetic owner who can devote more time and love for him. I do not
regret the moment I decided to save him from being put down by the SPCA
because they had no room for him, but it has caused me many difficulties
that I was not fully prepared to handle. He has made good progress from
being a wild Alpha pack leader to a trustworthy and protective housemate
and good buddy, but I don't want to continue having to keep him and Photon
separate. His needs require most of my time, and Photon must hide or stay
outside.

For my adoption poster with pictures of Muttley, please see:

choke collar until someone can show you how to use it correctly.

Please?

It's a TRAINING collar. And if there ain't no TRAINING going on, take
it off and leave it off.

Geez.

flea soap. He had to pick him up and put him in the tub, but once he was
wet, he seemed to enjoy it and didn't struggle. When I got there Muttley
was tied loosely on the porch, standing up with tail wagging, and he
greeted me with enthusiasm, then settled down to relax on the porch.

He was very good on the trip home, riding shotgun with just his nose out
the window. He was happy to be home, but he was a bit too enthusiastic
about getting out of the car. He and Photon looked at each other for a few
seconds until she retreated under the floor, and he was not too aggressive.
He napped on the bed for a while, as I did some things on the computer.

Eventually he let me know he needed attention, and I decided to try the
large prong collar. He did not really resist my slipping it over his neck.

Janet B...

WHAT?!?!?!? It's totally missized if you can do that - PLEASE do not
do that.

It did not work when I had the choke collar also hooked to the leash, so I
used just the prong collar. I did not need to yank on it or exert much
tension. He seemed to realize that it would be uncomfortable to tug harder,
so he exercised good loose leash control on the way out, and was able to
heel pretty well when so instructed on the way back. I gave him praise for
his good behavior, and he sat pretty well while I removed the collar and
allowed him free run of the house. Now he is snoozing on his dog pad. I'll
try the collar again tomorrow on a longer walk with more distractions, and

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Noooooo! He's not ready for distractions yet. He needs to learn how
to heel on a loose leash when there *aren't* any distractions first,
and that may take some time.

If you care anything at all about Muttley, you'll stop futzing around
like Mr. Wizard on speed and just wait until your TRAINER can show and
tell you what to do.

hopefully he will be easier to control. I am quite convinced that the
localized pressure from the multiple prongs will not hurt him as much as
having him pull on the choker collar until he gasps. I put the prong collar
on my arm and pulled firmly, with no real pain.

I have also heard some mention of shock collars, and noise distractions for

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Oh, please. Stop! You don't need an e-collar. You just need some
freakin' patience, and some help from an experienced TRAINER.

[]

training. As an electronics engineer, I can understand how shock collars
might work, although I would think it would require a rather high voltage
to be effective through a thick layer of hair. It would need to be current
limited, of course, to avoid burning or muscle damage once insulation
breakdown occurred, and also for various conditions such as rain, humidity,
or proximity of the prong to the skin. Anyone who has undergone physical
therapy may have experienced electrical stimulation, where electrodes are
placed on the skin and a variable, pulsating current is imposed. At low
levels, it can be almost pleasant, and does not really hurt until higher
levels are set. It is possible to develop some tolerance for it, and people
have different thresholds. I can see that a properly designed shock collar
could be effective and humane, but there is a very real danger of improper
use, poor design, or component failure which might present a dangerous or
lethal shock hazard.

It seems to me that a safer device might be one which emitted a high
pitched audio tone, probably beyond the range of human hearing, but readily
heard by dogs, and adjusted in tone and intensity as required to be
somewhere between distracting and irritating. If incorporated in a collar,
it could be close enough to the dog's ears to be effective on him, but not
too loud for other dogs in the vicinity. It might even be effective to keep
aggressive dogs at a distance. I think it would be important to have a
simple control on the leash for manual use by the trainer, but there could
also be a strain gauge built in which would increase the sound as the dog
strained harder on the leash. Is there any such device on the market, and
if not, would it be effective, and should I rush to the patent office?

Just some thoughts. This has been an interesting discussion. Even Jerry
seems to have some reasonable ideas, although I only skimmed a bit of one

Handsome Jack Morrison...

Yeah, that's the smart thing to do.

Start listening to Jerry, our resident loon.

Geez.

Poor, poor Muttley.

of his posts, and his attitude and verbosity make for a tough read.

have never used one, but it would seem to make sense to use a larger
stronger size collar on a powerful dog.
The dog trainer I had was a trainer that also trained dogs for search and
rescue, schutzhund and and police service He had many years of experience.

flick...

He doesn't know what you want, yet - he isn't trained, yet. You'll learn
how to size and use that prong collar in class, and all will become clear,
Grasshopper ;-).

flick 100785