Further census mysteries

in 1862 William Wall married Maria Payne[1] at Clerkenwell. In 1861 they
were both living at 2 Francis St St Pancras, William with his father Edward
and Maria, who was aged 34, with John Payne age 43, described as son-in-law.
Try as I may I can't work out what the relationship is supposed to be.

Graeme Wall...

Must get some letters on these key caps, half of them are worn off.

Graeme Wall...

At least you've narrowed the search area, all I've got is Russia and it's a
big place!

The Household is as follows:

Eve McLaughlin...

Two households.
If William definitely married Maria in the next year, then the set up
could be
The Wall family with unmarried son William lived in the same house,
but in a separate household to the nicely placed widowed Mrs Maria
Payne. Her age looks suitable for this. But if John Payne is really 43,
then she was presumably married before to an old man, who had a son,
John, by his first marriage. She was now sharing an apartment with her
stepson, John, though courting Will next door/next floor.
It is possible that John's age is misread, and he was perhaps 23 (the
figures can be confused.)

Graeme Wall...

The ome thing I am sure of that John's age is 43, that at least is clear on
the image.

mlou1173...

Another shot in the dark....from the IGI:

JOHN PAIN
Born April 7, 1817
Baptised April 30, 1817
Parents: EDWARD & Mary Ann Pain

mlou1173...

Sorry...left out this occurred in St. Mary's, Marylebone, London

mary lou

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Graeme Wall...

Age is right, and born in the right place. looks like 1 of a family of 5
children.

mary lou

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Edward Wall Head Mar 81 Annuitant
Ruth M A Do. Wife Mar 71

Graeme Wall...

Gives an idea of how the couple probably met.

Graeme Wall...

Or minimal talent compared to his parents and sister. Wonder if he engraved
their music for them.

Graeme Wall...

No thanks for that, she doesn't appear to be very relevant to me. Thanks for
the offer.

I do wonder what, if any, contact existed between the Pyne and Wall families.
After all Louisa and John's father marries the servant after their mother
died then dies himself, apparently leaving Maria comfortably off. She then
gets herself pregnant by the lodger's son and then marries him after the baby
is born. Interesting that Maria disappears off sarf of the river to have her
baby.

William Do. Son Unm 39 Librarian
Maria Payne Head W 34 Fundholder
John Do. Son-in-Law Unm 43 Seal Engraver

The only thing I can think of is that Maria and John are in the wrong order
and should be the other way round, making John Edward's son-in-law. However

C Rihan...

Looking at the above description;-
There are two 'Head's in that household, so I would
think that it's really two households there.
There should be a little mark between William and Maria.

Maria is decribed as W for widow, so it looks as though
she had married an older man who had at least one son, John.

Best wishes
C.Rihan

John is listed as unmarried where in that case I would have expected him to
be either married or widdowed.

Anyone any suggestions?

Jenny M Benson...

John Payne is almost certainly what we would now call the Stepson of
Maria Payne.

It's quite possible that she married a man considerably older than
herself, thus acquiring a stepson who was older than she. Do you have

Jenny M Benson...

Apologies for FUMOP.

Spookily enough, this evening I have come across an incidence in my own
family where a widower of 61 married a woman of 28, making her the
stepmother of his 33-year-old son.

Phil C....

According to the standard version of family relationships, my 2xg
grandfather (born c1829) was about 16 years older than his final
"stepmother" though he certainly never met her and probably never even
knew of her. He was 51 years older than his youngest half-brother
(born 1880).

It's possible that my 2xg grandfather was actually the son of my "4xg
grandfather" but there's certainly a 47 year gap between easily
identifiable children of my "3xg grandfather". There are plenty still
to find.

andrew...

Phil -

Such 'inter-generation' relationships are great fun, and certainly
muddle up to a delightful extent the normal cousinships within a tree!
However, they are at times difficult to winkle out.

I remember Rev Sydney Smith had a half brother very much younger than
himself because his father aged seventy years or so had a fling with the
house maid.

poddys...

Reminds me of a play on the rhyme from Alice In Wonderland....

You are old Father William the young man said
And your hair is incredibly white
And yet you're continually groping the maid
Do you think, at your age this is right!

I forget where this came from though........
Sounds like someone did a bit more than groping

Yours Aye Andrew Sellon

confirmation of their age from other sources? If not, the census could
be wrong.

Graeme Wall...

I've got Maria's age from the 1881 and it is about 3 years out compared with
1861, Not unlikely for an old lady to knock a couple of years off her age
when that nice young man from the census calls.

Your scenario would explain why she was a widow at a comparatively young age.

A. Gwilliam...

Now there's an unwritten assumption!

Graeme Wall...

34 is a fairly young age to be a widow.

Jeff...

Today - yes. But in 1861 much more likely, even assuming she did not
marry a much older man (which seems likely)

Graeme Wall...

Very true. bit it is as good a scenario as any and does explain the step-son
being older than her.

Eve McLaughlin...

But not leaving a son by a first marriage aged 43.

My original confusion was because I'd forgotten the son-in-law/stepson
connection.

[1] Parents of Ruth Mary Ann Baranoff, see 1901 thread.

Anne Chambers...

What's the census reference ?

Graeme Wall...

RG9 106 67 1

Anne
South Australia

Jeff...

Do you have the marriage cert of Maria & William.

That should give her original maiden name "formerly (original maiden
name) late (previous married name)"

That might let you find her in 1851 which might give clues

Graeme Wall...

Currently waiting for it (mutter mutter ruddy BBC mutter!).