Job of Census enumerators in the 19th century - not much has changed

What is noticable in Threlkeld is that they went round the parish in a
logical manner - not always the same route but normally logical.

This has been valuable in trying to identify which house of the umpteen
"Threlkeld Village" addresses is which.

It enabled me to identify (with minimum remaining doubt) the location of
"The Castle". It appears on the tithe map (unidentified) and must have
been very small and possibly only one room.

I have had a suggested explanation for such a name being given to such a
building, but would you like to have a go?

Hugh Watkins...

as properties became unfashinable they were subdivided and sub let
eg the lords of the manor built a new victorian hous with all mod cons
possibly in London and becam absentee landlords

(1) on the ground is there a tumulus or mound or motte or the remains
of a (filled in ) moat ?

Stuart Cresswell...

No. the gradient is about 1 in 8.

In Solihull we have at least two moated houses now demolished

Stuart Cresswell...

I know I used to kive in Mill Lane Dorridge

(2) a sort of local joke eg Tom's castle

Stuart Cresswell...

We think not

did the WI list the field names in the 950ies?

Stuart Cresswell...

Not much point - the Tithe map lists all the fields.

some castles and priories ... only survive as field names

Stuart Cresswell...

Not this one

The Salutation Inn. Threlkeld, Nr Keswick, Cumbria CA12 4SQ
add post codes to your site plese

Stuart Cresswell...

Happy to do so if I am given the details

what is the geographical "theme" of the village
a river crossing?

Stuart Cresswell...

Interesting question. Certainly not a river crossing - though the river
which runs through the valley (100 yards from my house at this point)
does divide the adjoining parishes. It is crossed by several quite small
bridges. A good long jumper could cross it at most points in the parish
and it is wade-able normally - though you might get your knees wet. None
of the bridges are in the village.

The modern road is the A66 from Penrith to Keswick, though it by-passes
the village. The old road is the Penrith Keswick and Cockermouth
Turnpike. There is not a toll bar in the village but there is one about
a mile to the east. Where the one to the west was I have not been able
to identify.

The church is a daughter church in the very large parish of Greystoke
though Keswick with an even larger parish of Crosthwaite is near. There
has been a priest here since at latest 1220 and St Columba is said to
have preached here in 553 AD. There has been schooling here since at
latest 1659. Until 1776 they were taught in the church but when that was
pulled down and rebuilt (in was falling down anyway and the pull down
was in April and the rebuild was ready for worship in August - try that
today!) at the same time they built a one room school house about 100
yards below the Castle. Between the two was the workhouse.

The workhouse was rebuilt in the 1880s and the only remaining buildings
are two barns (now converted to house and studio) which formed part of
the Towngate Estate (the village's oldest charity)

Across the valley (in the other parish St John's in the Vale) is a
"British Settlement" believed to be Iron Age and of course about two
miles away is Castlerigg Stone Circle (believed to be older than
Stonehange)

Gategill mine just east of the vilage was worked by the German miners in
the late 1500s

We have two old pubs in the village and another to the east of the toll bar.

Frankly I am at a loss to suggest why the village grew up here. The most
likely (for which I have no evidence) is that being eight miles from
Greystoke and being a fertile farming valley with fell grazing, it was
decided that a place of worship was needed for the population who were
unlikely to go the the mother church every Sunday and so a chapel was
built where Columba was believed traditionaly to have preached. The
village grew up around the church and as it was the first significant
community for 4 or 5 miles pubs was built for the benefit of travellers.

with all that marsh in Denmark you might expect a viking causeway a bro
"bridge" (also pagan offerings)

so a defensive position could be on the edge of a marsh

as well as the obvious high point
an ox-bow or peninsular between a river and its tributary
initially just a ditch (many on the Isle of Man and in Ireland eg
Dublin Castle and vikng town)
then in southern england saxon water mills were all over

just some jottings

and equivalent to Feng Shui was known to all people with a sense of
local climate
our ancesters often located their farms very wisely

every village starts as one farm and is typically 20 minutes walk to the
next through the forest

Stuart Cresswell...

Might have been once but most of the present farm sites are within half
a mile of at least two others.

There is a line of farms just below the fell wall at about 700 feet
asl,well above the river. There are at least two in the village and
several others both at village level (500 ft) and in the valley bottom.

Post Ice Age there must have been a lake in the valley bottom possibly
up to the 500 ft level. This I deduce from the fact that the valley is
drained by the river Greta passing through a water cut gorge through
(presumably) glacial deposits at about that level.

then divided for the sons and more land cleared
ear markings of sheep define the oldest farm which has the simplest
a single cut in one ear

Stuart Cresswell...

The Shepherd's Guide lists all the nick and smit marks. I think nowadays
smit marks are used for identification in the field (or on the fell) but
ear tags are used for full identity

this is all prehistory
but customs survived in the remote parts of europe
eg bagpipes in yugoslavia and scotland

sagas and medieval round dances in Faeroes and Iceland

Hugh Watkins...

get some archeologists in with ground radar

does domesday book cover the valley?

were the romans near

you just need to plot all data
the tithe map I have from Llanfair Kilgeddin of Highmead farm has
numbered fields (segment photographed for me at Kew)

Hugh Watkins...

snip oops
on mine too
Glebe Lands by the river USK
names of groups of fields or small holdings but not individual fields

Are the ancient stone wall clearly tracable with an inner and an outer
ring field to keep the stock out in the growing season?

summer grazing on the fells with bothies for shepherds and milkmaids

Scottish scandinavian style of common tenure ?

reused worked stone in house walls?

the romanwalls of london were incorporated into houses until evealed
by the blitz
as a child I played in Uskcastle ruin and knew Chepstow castle well
which even possibly incorporates some possible roman wall with bricj /
tile courses

obviously the Castle Cottage may have been near a castle site

a gate house

thinking of border castles

"fortified Border tower house"
'
Orchardton Tower

Threave Castle, built in 1369

but in a much smaller version totally robbed out

Hugh W

wooden castles rot and stone castles were quarried (recycled into newer
buildings)

a site may be quite flat

Hugh W

Stuart Cresswell...

Any more ideas?

Hugh W

Additional information:

C Rihan...

(snipped)

Could it have been a stopping place for the coaches to pick up/drop
passengers, feed/rest/change horses?

Best wishes
C.Rihan

Threlkeld was then basically a linear village, nestling under Blencathra
(or Saddleback) in the Cumberland fells, partly on the main east-west
turnpike road and partly on a road running off it in a northerly
direction steeply up towards the fells.

The Castle is the last but one house on this latter road (the last one
is a substantial farmhouse and steading)

Above that nowadays (and then) there are enclosed fields before the fell
wall is reached and the ground rises much more steeply.

Graeme Wall...

Was there ever a proper castle (or stone age earthwork) on that hill and
could the 'modern' castle have been some sort of gatehouse originally?

Stuart Cresswell...

Almost certainly no. The only possible candicate for that is in the
valley bottom at Threlkeld Hall, where there was an older hall and
presumed seat of the Lord of the Manor.

Graeme Wall...

Bang goes that theory.

The farms at the tithe map time (including this one) were arable and
stock and the stock would have been (as now) sheep and cattle.

There was a very successful lead and zinc mine on the eastern outskirts
(but this is probably irrelevant)

Job of Census enumerators in the 19th century - not much has changed - a puzzle