Family crest and seal

Amongst my late Uncle's Family History research papers there is an
envelop inscribed "Carter Crest" and in it is a piece of paper with a
very ornate crest printed on it and also, a piece of paper on which has
been impressed in sealing wax a crest from a seal or signet ring.

It depicts, within a rounded-cornered rectangular frame, an oval
"ribbon" with words on it and a rampant horse (I think it's a horse) in
the centre. It's very hard to read the words as they are so tiny but I
have used a magnifier and *think* they say "Pro Legibus o Regibus."

Eve McLaughlin...

There are upwards of a dozen different coats of arms for various Carter
families (the crest is the device on top of the shield, the arms within
the shield). None of these arms fetures a horse (the favoured device in
some cases is a talbot (hunting dog), in others a lion rampant. None of
them use the motto pro legibus ac regibus (for the laws and the kings),
which is listed as the motto used by the Wilson family.

It looks as if your uncle may have been the victim of one of the firms
who peddle arms (anybody's) to tourists.

James McNangle...

As the heir to a genuine coat of arms (granted to my father in about 1937) I
have been amused by various offers to supply me with high-quality reproductions
of (completely different) "the family coat of arms". As I have a good
bog-Irish surname (not McNangle) I would be surprised if any other member of the
family had ever been granted a coat of arms.

But as my sons have no children, and there are no other male descendants, can
the arms pass down through my daughter?

StephenP...

I don't know the custom concerning Irish Arms. However, I understand
that in Scotland the Arms can pass down through a daughter and to her
children if she, and they, retain her paternal surname. I don't know
how much the situation is complicated if she has brothers.

In England an heraldic heiress' Arms are passed on to her children in
the form of quarters if she marries an armigerous husband. There have
been instances of husbands obtaining a Royal Licence to change their
names to that of their wife's and for her Arms to be used by their
children.

You could chance your arm and ask that question at rec.heraldy.

andrew...

Whether the same rules apply to Scottish Arms as to their titles I do no
know. Certainly there are a few Scottish titles that can go down the
female line. It so happens that yesterday I had a fleeting glance on Tv
of someone I remember from fifty years ago as a bare footed tousle
haired freckled faced urchin with jiggers in her feet, now a very
respected Peeress in her own right, having inherited the title. She was
just resigning from some quango or other, complaining bitterly that the
government never paid attention to reports that they had asked for.

Martin Briscoe (2)...

And the well paid top job usually given to a crony of the Prime Minister
or one of his senior Ministers (as is the case with one very much in the
news at the moment!).

Yours Aye Andrew Sellon

Paul Kavanagh...

I've seen reference here several times to the word "quango". For the
benefit of the non-Brits on the group, what is a quango?

Paul in Burlington, ON

Ken Gibb...

Have you never had the chance to view " Yes Minister" ??

Ken

Ken Gibb...

Ken & Jill Gibb, gibb@westnet.com.au
Mordialloc,
Vic. Australia.

Yours aye

James McNangle

Firstly, I'd like to know if that Latin sounds right, and if so, what it
means.

John Townsend...

Nearly right. "Pro Legibus ac Regibus" (= for the laws and kings) is a
recognized motto.

Secondly, how can I discover anything more about the seal and the crest?
My Great Grandmother was a Carter, born in 1804, but I don't know
whether this Crest would belong to her father John, or some other member
of the family.

John Townsend...

The above motto seems to have been used by the Wilson family, but it may
have been used by other families too. It is important to realise that
because the crest was in your family's possession, it does not mean that
they were legally entitled to use it. Perhaps some other list member will
check the crest for you - I can't lay my hands on my Fairbairn's at the
moment!

Best wishes,

John Townsend
Genealogist/Antiquarian Bookseller

Charani...

Have a look here:

It possibly isn't genuine, I'm afraid.

You could forward it to the College of Arms and for a fairly hefty
fee, they'll be able to tell you who the arms were awarded to and
when.

There are pictures at

and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jalna/198201905/