If your folk came from SW Scotland

Then this is a site worth keeping an eye on
A bunch of local museums have got together to put images of their
collections on line. It's only just started, and there's a lot more to come.
Even with all my folk being East Coast people, I found things of interest.

Doug Laidlaw...

Thanks from me as well. My Laidlaws came from Dumfries, but I thought that
it was more central than south-west. I haven't found any relationship with
the Selkirk Laidlaws.

Lesley Robertson

Val Adams...

Thanks, Lesley!
In truth I have no idea where mine came from, Douglas' rather like black
beetles, we get in everywhere, but looks like a fun place to visit just because!
Val

eiblhin...

Threave Castle at Castle Douglas was a Douglas stronghold I believe.
EJC

Lesley Robertson...

Red Douglas or Black Douglas?
Lesley Robertson

Alison Causton...

My mother's grandfather said his family were descended from the Black
Douglas. On the few occasions that we heard this, we just listened
politely and hoped the subject would change.

But, supposing people made a point of marking this kind of thing in the
days when television and radio did not serve to distract, 'round the
dinner table or what have you, how likely is it that a Kirkpatrick
(later Kilpatrick in counties Antrim and Derry) from the southwest of
Scotland could make this claim?

I understand the perils of giving too much credence to any family story
that begins with, "Well, you know, we're descended from the
Lah-dee-dahs,", but sometimes you wonder whether the elders in past
centuries maintained an oral family history that has been lost only
relatively recently ... ?

mlou1173...

I find this all the time....but also that there is usually a grain of truth
in the stories however distorted. I have always heard that my grandfather
was the "first to come over all alone at age 17"...turns out this was in
fact his older brother. And "you know your Grandfather first went to New
Orleans to work on the railroad"...this turned out to actually have been my
g-grandfather on the maternal side of the family. There are grains of truth
in what our elders remember, but often get attributed to the wrong person.

roy.stockdill...

Or the details get confused or enhanced! When I was a child I loved
playing with a battered old military drum of my grandfather's that he
swore had been carried by an ancestor his at the Battle of Waterloo.
Many years latered I discovered that his great-grandfather - my 3x gt-
grandfather - had indeed been a drummer in the 53rd Regiment of Foot.
Only thing was, the regiment weren't at Waterloo and the evidence
suggested my ancestor had been a member of a recruiting party at
Nantwich, Cheshire, where he met and married my gt-gt-gt-
grandmother!

Roy Stockdill
Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History:

"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about,
and that is not being talked about."
OSCAR WILDE

mary lou

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Don Aitken...

Alison Causton...

Yes, I do see what each of you means ... we have one or two, more recent
examples of those, for instance, the great-grandfather who went back to
Ireland to collect his sister-in-law as a bride ... he collected her
from Ireland alright, but nine years before his wife died. ;-)

Thanks, Mary Ellen, and Roy, for writing in your examples.

Alison Causton...

... ehrm, sorry, Mary Lou!

mlou1173...

No problem....I've probably been called worse!

mary lou

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There seem to be lots of living descendants of the Black Douglases,
via Margaret, daughter of Archibald "the Tyneman", 4th Earl of
Douglas, who married three times. Issue of her first marriage include
the families of Montgomerie and Seton, the Maitlands of Lauderdale,
the Mackenzies of Seaforth and the Hays of Tweeddale, and those of her
third the Lords Sinclair, the St. Clair-Erskines, the Campbells of
Breadalbane, the Ogilvies of Airlie, etc. And Margaret's niece, also
Margaret, "the fair maid of Galloway", brings in the inummerable
descendants of the Stewart Earls of Atholl - Gordons, Grays, Murrays,
Forbeses, Frasers, etc. There are no doubt lots of more humble folk
too, but any connection to the Scottish aristocracy probably gives you
a much better than even chance.

viv.dunstan...

I tie in via the Sinclair marriage of Archibald 4th Earl's daughter
(leading to Ogilvy -> Gray -> Logan families), as well as through the
Douglases of Drumlanrig (so from the earliest Black Douglases) who
married Douglases of Angus (Red) too. Took quite a bit of archival
research to unearth the Douglas of Drumlanrig link (I descend from a
younger brother of the 17th century 1st Earl of Queensberry) because the
published Douglas family histories are a bit dodgy about that
generation. But once established it was easy enough to go back in time.

In my case it was 19th century illegitimacy which connected a domestic
servant's daughter with a family whose ancestors were minor Scottish
Border gentry, then it's a few steps up the social hierarchy to reach
more major gentry, nobility and royalty. Anyone tying into minor
Scottish gentry probably has noble/royal links if they go back enough.

It's all interesting enough, including being descended from royalty
(James IV is the most recent direct king/queen ancestor in my tree), but
I'm more interested personally in the other lines, more everyday ones,
not least because they usually involve more challenging research.

Alison Causton
Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia

eiblhin...

Black

I remember going with a school group and we were allowed inside - it
wasn't a tourist attraction then and kept locked up. Pretty dour and scary
to us
I remember being amazed at how thick the walls were, and walking round the
tops of the walls which were reached by a ladder attached to a wall.
There were no proper stairs, only wooden ones. Looking at the pictures now
it seems an unlikely occurrence because they seem more jagged now, but I
know I did it.

It was a favourite summer picnic spot when I was about 9 yrs old. Dad used
to tie the lemonade bottle round the neck with a string and let it float in
the water to cool it down. Egg and cress, and soggy salad sandwiches - we
thought it bliss.

Val Adams...

There are a number around Scotland. On my one visit, I saw Tantallon, near
Berwick. I funked the battlements, until a kind fellow tourist walked up
with me. The rest of the place I snooped pretty thoroughly, with an ambition
in mind to build a miniature version. I did in fact lay one out and
construct room/building shells, and furnish some. With a spread of 8' by 5'
at the base it rather begged the question as a 'miniature' but was great fun
to play with until the space was needed for other things and I had to
dismantle it. I still have the 'rooms' stored downstairs, but not likely to
be fully assembled again.
The most interesting-and frustrating!- thing I noticed on the visit was how
well the grounds were maintained, verges cut and no litter at all. I had to
rummage around almost down to the beach before finding a small chip of stone
that looked as tho it might be the same material as the walls. It is about
1x2 inches, large enough to serve as a color and texture check when
building; tho of course my version owed much to fancy!

Jane Margaret Laight...

Thanks Lesley--I'll certainly hang on to this one.

Alison Causton...

Thanks very much, Lesley, for pointing this site out. Some of our lot
did come from that part of Scotland, i.e., Maybole and Dumfries, and
probably other places in the southwest of Scotland, as well.

Lesley Robertson...

Well, the term "Blck Douglas" covers a lot of people from their leaders to
the clansmen & women - and it wouldn't have to be a male line.. It's not
impossible. You'll know when you t far eough back in the family and find the
Douglas contributer!
Lesley Robertson

Alison Causton...

Simply because the records are so scarce/thin for mere farmers and
tenants in 17th & 18th century Ireland, I have grave (!) doubts that I
will ever make the research leap from the county Derry/Antrim border in
Ireland (Kilrea & Rasharkin parishes, respectively) to ... somewhere in
southwest Scotland c1680.

In Irish family history research, if one's ancestor was an occupier of
land in the mid-19th century, the land valuation -headed up by Richard
Griffiths- recorded these names and the corresponding parish & townland
addresses. An index exists which not only helps to direct one's
attention, but also provides the means to plot geographically the
distribution of particular surnames. This is an especially useful
device if you know the maternal family name, as well.

Are there Scottish records which would permit a similar analysis? if
only to get a general sense where a certain surname, or perhaps even a
cluster of surnames, might have been located.

viv.dunstan...

The late 17th century poll tax records would be good but unfortunately
they're (1) incomplete (only some survive); and (2) unscanned/unindexed.
The originals are in the National Archives of Scotland. If you're lucky
to find records for the parish you're looking for it can give a very
lengthy list of names and occupations for that area. If that record was
computerised to give a record covering as much of Scotland as possible
it would be a very useful resource for genealogists in general and also
surname historians. But again the surviving records are incomplete.

Alison Causton...

I should have qualified the question, perhaps, by prefacing the question
with, "prior to the 1841 census" which, I see, is now online at
Scotland's People.

Lesley Robertson...

They also have the index to the Old Parish Records there. They might help.
The images will be along one day.
Lesley Robertson

Alison Causton

This makes for very interesting reading and warrants a place on the
"watch for updates" list.

Lesley Robertson...

Having now looked through the site, it seems relevant for anyone with
scottish ancestry - many of the things they show would have been used or
done anywhere - eg the curling.
Lesley Robertson

Cheers,

Alison Causton
Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia

Jill...

First you need a local museum !!