Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWorkington &de

Thank you Alex

My mail took a long time to hit the list and the meantime I have found some
more. William Fitz Duncan and one of the Maldreds (which one?) are both
claimed by various people to have had arms which influenced the "de
Lancaster" arms as well as those of some other northern families.

Alex Maxwell Findlater...

The Lancaster arms were as far as I remember Gules two lions passant Or
in pale. That is nothing like the arms which are generally derived
from Maldred, which are based on the paly of the earls of Atholl, if
indeed this isn't too a call too far, eg Washington etc. See Sir Iain
Moncrieffe of that Ilk, who wrote an article about double arms. You
should be able to find a copy of his Lord of the Dance, an heraldic
miscellany, ed Montgomery-Massingberd. I cannot remember where the
article was first published.

taf...

I would be careful of this claim. These men date to a period just when
heraldry was emerging, and few had documented arms, in spite of
anachronistic claims to the contrary.

Tim Powys-Lybbe...

And even more misleading is the practice of the English College of Arms
to recognise arms created for people who lived significantly before the
start of heraldry in the first half of the twelfth century.

In any case there seems to be a connection between a complex of northerners
whose roots there were often pre-Norman, Northumbrian, although they had
become more closely associated with the kingdom of Scotland. Their influence
over families like the de Lancasters is interesting in its own right, but
might also help us decide how "Anglo Saxon" they were? (There is an on-going
debate about whether the de Lancasters really descend from the family of
Eldred of Workington, who were apparently Anglo Saxons.)

1. William I de Lancaster's brother Roger is said to have married the widow
of Waldeve/Waltheof of Allerdale, although I had him down as a son of
Siward?

2. Gunnilda of Dunbar, sister of Waldeve/Waltheof, married Roger and
William's supposed relative, Orme fitz Ketel, Lord of Seaton, a member of
the family of Eldred of Workington.

3. In 1139 William I de Lancaster is said to have been Castellan of Wiliam
Fitz Duncan's castle of Egremont. William's Fitz Duncan's mother was
apparently Uchtreda, daughter of Gospatric, son of Maldred, son of Crinan.

Best Regards
Andrew

=====
From: "Alex Maxwell Findlater"
Subject: Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWorkington
&de Lancasters of Kendal
Date: 17 Nov 2006 02:54:51 -0800
References:
19.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>