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Marriages of Norman barons circa 1040-1100 by what criteria?



11 Mar 2006 07:44:07 -0800 soc.genealogy.medieval
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Shinjinee...
I have been reading some historical fiction about this era, and
wondered what were the principal criteria by which Norman magnates
chose their wives. By magnates, I mean those principal noblemen who
would have been granted lands in England (if they so chose) or who had
considerable lands of their own in Normandy and allied/ vassal
territories. Not all were formally barons, but would probably be known
as "Lord of [principal seat]. I am rather new to Norman and

Renia...
Baron was not a formal title at the time. Lord/Baron, in effect had the
same meaning - a principal landholder. The land was held of the King.
The lord of the manor held the lordship, by which he was recognised as
that principal landholder. Much of the time, lords did not live in their
baronies for they held several. They would "sub-let" them to other
people. They might even prefer to live in someone else's barony and
"sub-let" that from them.

Without going into the particular families you name, below, it might
make it a little easier if you think of these landholdings as "business
enterprises". One lord/baron might have several "businesses" and he
might wish to amalgamate his business with another - in other words, get
married to an heiress with landholdings of her own. Sometimes these
"business ventures" were planned before the prospective bride and groom
were even born, or conceived, with families planning future alliances.
Sometimes, the infant bride or bride-to-be was brought up by her
(prospective) in-laws, in order to continue family traditions and customs.

Some of the Norman barons were already related, either by marriage or
blood. Others became so soon after the Conquest. Love rarely had
anything to do with it.

(I have to dash out now, and haven't had time to read what your wrote,
below.)

Renia

Anglo-Norman history, so please bear with any mistakes. In trying to
figure out how Norman noblemen in families such as the Montgomeri
[Montgomery], Beaumont, Toeni, Grandmesnil, Giffard, Clare, and
Mortimer families chose their brides, I came to some conclusions:

1. the bride in question was sister or daughter to a powerful nobleman,
and was possible heir to some or all of the family lands. [I don't know
if Roger de Beamont, father of the two Anglo-Norman earls, married his
wife on this basis, but she or rather her eldest son was certainly heir
to his maternal uncle. Roger de Montgomeri's first wife was eventual
heiress to Belleme etc].

2. the bride in question was of a powerful nobleman, and had as her
dowry, lands that the bridegroom wanted (neighboring to his own lands,
or useful for some other reason). At least, I conjecture that this is
one reason why Robert de Beaumont, count of Meulan and earl of
Leicester might have wanted to marry Godehild de Toeni (before she
chose a Crusader).

3. the bride in question came with a fat dowry in gold or silver. More
or less useful, depending on the needs of the bridegroom. If he was
building several castles all at once or raising private armies for
private wars, he would need cash for wages, food, and supplies.

4. the bride in question was of royal birth and/or royal descent.
Presumably, such a bride might come with a lesser dowry, and still be
an attractive proposition.

5. the bride in question did *not* come from a family that was feuding
with one's own (obviously) and furthermore, was not from a family that
was out of political favor (or could constitute a liability).

This apart from the usual issues of consanguinity.

The rest of my question is about the early Anglo-Norman period (roughly
1066-1100):

I suppose I am wondering why there were no marriages between Montgomeri
(earls of Shrewsbury) and Avranches (earls of Chester) - possibly the
king would have disapproved after his sad experience circa 1075; or
between Montgomeri and Beaumont (counts of Meulan and earls of
Warwick). In my opinion, the brothers of any Montgomeri daughter would
probably have been a definite liability. But then, I might be applying
modern sensibilities here; perhaps what would have concerned a
potential suitor would not be their reputations (violent and cruel) nor
their political sentiments (in preferring Robert Curthose) but rather
the fact that with so many siblings, the dowries would have been
smaller. I am assuming that the eldest daughter who married the king's
half-brother Robert, Count of Mortain, was well dowered, and hers
appears to have been the best marriage.

But it also appears to me that Norman magnates who won lands in England
then sought brides from Normandy (whether their brides and their
families had land in England or not). Sort of similar to British HEICS
nabobs choosing brides from "back home" rather from among their fellow
HEICS families, or rich Creoles (in the sense of born in Spanish
colonies) sometimes choosing brides from back in Spain. This might
explain why Chester married a daughter of Clermont, and Meulan chose
first a Toeni daughter and then a Capetian bride.

Would a Norman magnate considering marriage find lands in Normandy and
Maine far more valuable than land in England (and Wales)? That is to
say, would only lesser noblemen (including the younger sons who made
their fortunes in England) consider as brides the ladies with land/
dowries in England and Wales. Welsh land would be problematic, needing
to be defended against invasion, so that might explain why ladies with
such lands would be not considered when there were problems enough in
Normandy.

Kind of related - if a nobleman of this period had several sons and
daughters, and land in both Normandy and England, would he provide for
the younger sons and the younger daughters out of his English lands
only? I am assuming that this is what Roger de Montgomeri, earl of
Shrewsbury did (apart from marrying the third Roger to a Poitevin
heiress), and that his youngest daughter Sybille had only English or
Welsh land as her dowry when she married the lord of Gloucester. I
may be wrong on this point of course.

If these issues have been discussed earlier on the group, I apologize.
Please point me to the relevant messages (my search did not locate
them). Is there any book or article that discusses any or all of these
issues?

Shinjinee
(curious about marriage alliances in this period after beginning to
read "Jackals of Iron" by Merlin Douglas Larsen; occasional poster over
at alt.talk.royalty)
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