Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Dear Todd,
Ramon Berenguer and Berenguer Ramon a case of Patronymics? I
was thinking of the twin brothers Ramon Berenguer II and Berenguer Ramon who
were joint Counts of Barcelona.

Todd A. Farmerie...

(they probably weren't twins, by the way - anything close to
contemporary just says "brother" - the "twins" is a later literary
improvement.)

The pedigree:

Borrell

Ramon Borrell

Berenger Ramon

Ramon Berenger

(patronymics so far, then)

Ramon Berenger,Berenger Ramon

- named for their father and grandfather, respectively - this is the
evolution of the system I was talking about, not patronymic but based on
the use of predicessors patronymic forms (I sometimes call these
pseudo-patronymic forms, as they are derived from a patronymic
structure, but no longer following the patronymic formula), only now
being passed in toto. These are not two brothers named Berenger AKA
Ramon, with the two alternative names given in different orders, nor is
it a case of a main name and a secondary name, like modern middle names.
Instead, the names represent a single unit, and should perhaps be
represented as Berenger-Ramon and Ramon-Berenger, analogous to our own
MichaelAnne - a single name, written in two parts. That is different
than the other examples, of William Rufus [name nickname] or the
Dammartin brothers I mentioned, who appear in documents as either one or
the other, and only rarely as one alias the other - where the names are
true alternatives for the same person. I guess what I am trying to get
across is that there are double names and there are double names, and
context is everything. In a post-conquest Anglo-Norman context, double
name are inauthentic.

(Lest Nat jumps in to keep me honest, Borrell's uncle appears to have
had a non-patronymic, non-pseudopatronymic double name. He was Wifred
Borrell, and was son of Wifred and great grandson of Borrell, apparently
named dually to honor both father and founder - more analogous to
Charles Constantine than the other examples we have been discussing).

Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA