Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany

In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:39:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is possibly
earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph son of Ribald
was an adult before c. 1116.

Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on behalf
of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters, 5 (1936): 299].

Dear Doug,

Thank you for the information. This does help.

Tim Powys-Lybbe...

This part of EYC is Clay's summary of his interpretation of the charters
rather than the charters themselves. The precise text is:

"Possibly, as a boy, he was the Ralph Taillebois who witnessed the
charter of Ives Taillebois to St Mary's York, c. 1091-94 (see above).
He was more often known as Ralph son of Ribald. So described he
witnessed, with several officials and tenants (or their sons) of count
Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St Mary's York,
1100-c.1116 [1]"

Then there is a paragraph listing some details of Ralph's life and is
followed by:

"At first sight it seems doubtful whether all these references relate
to the same man. But the cumulative evidence does not support any
alternative suggestion [8]."

The footnote [1] merely says "E.Y.C. no 527. The date is possibly
earlier that 1100 (see p. 1n above)". Unfortunately charter no 527 is
not in this volume, nor can I work out which volume it might be in.
Possibly it is in Farrer's initial three volumes but those are like gold
dust and I've yet even to see sight of these on the second hand market.

The footnote [8] says "The first three generations - Ribald, Ralph,
Robert - are given in a MS pedigree, with annotation, of the lords of
Middleham dating from the time of Henry VI. ..." Note that this is
some three centuries after the time referred to, though Clay reports
that Farrer noted that the MS appeared to be based on the evidence of
records seen by the compiler.

jcbs...

It is in volume I p 408-9. Dated by Farrer 1100-c.1116, a note states that
it is before the Lindsey Survey, but does not explain the earlier date. I
guess that comes from the fact that the first witness is Robert de Brus.

J.C.B.Sharp
London