Re: Crouchback

Dear Pierre,

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imed

You make an excellent point. If Henry IV of England claimed

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Actually, I didn't want to make a point but was asking a real question.
Edward III's claim to the French crown supposes a rather acrobatic set

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I of

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rence

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of rules of succession governing that crown, and the chaotic English
dynastic history in the following centuries makes even more
hypothetical a jointed succession to both crowns. So I often wondered
if any of his successors even bothered about that when pushing his
claim to the throne of France, or if it was made empirically, without
looking for a logical justification.

Denis Beauregard...

I don't see what is acrobatic.

Philippe IV had 4 children.

Louis X, Philip V and Charles IV all died before 1328 with no issue.
So, who is the next king ? If we forget the salic law, it is the 4th
child of Philippe IV, i.e. Isabelle, wife of Edward II and mother of
Edward III. Seen like that, Philippe VI is only the 2nd candidate.

But the more important point is that Edward was a foreigner king and
this was probably what made him not a successor more than the
succession rules. Even seen like that, Henri IV, king of Navarre
became the king of France too.

So, only the salic law applied here.

the English crown under Salic law, why did He maintain claim to the French
throne through the female line ? It makes no sense, yet if King Edward III of
England claimed the French crown by right of conquest ; King Jean II of Frence

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nch

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III

was captured at the Battle of Poitiers (I think) and spent the remainder of

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his days as the " honoured guest" of the English king, evidently having quite a

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No, he did not: he was freed, then came back.

evidently having quite a

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had to

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nice time. I wonder if They referred to him as " Your Majesty" or was "Your
Highness" or even " Your Grace" still in vogue for kingly address ? That had to
be strange for the heralds introducing " His Royal Majesty, Edward, King of
England and of France, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, Count of Poitou, Anjou,

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of France and England you mean!

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Normandy is a complex case but was no more part of the standard royal
style although Edward III used it erratically for specific purposes. He
had definitely dropped "duke of Aquitaine" when assuming the style of
King of France, which was logical. He assumed "lord of Aquitaine" only
when he renounced his claim to the French crown (since, by the treaty
concluded then, the King of France was supposed to have renounced his
sovereignty on Aquitaine, as Edward was supposed to have renounced his
claim to France).

and Maine" immediately followed by" His Royal Majesty, Jean, King of France"

Peter Stewart...

Well, apart from the anachronistic styles here, James II maintained this
claim to the French crown while he was a refugee in France and guest of
Louis XIV.

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Who was probably more amused than worried.

There was some problems however for receptions of ambassadors or in
other occasions when leter patent had to be read publicly: the parts
with the potentially offensive titles were omitted. The same was true
for the relation with Spain, including when the own grandson of Louis
XIV had become its king: his official style contained claims to some
French fiefs whose the Sun King considered to have merged in the crown
(including the title of Duke of Burgundy, whose actual holder in France
was the own brother of the new King of Spain).

Peter Stewart

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Titles never claimed or used by Edward or his successors (all had been
renounced by Henry III).

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Of course all that in French and not in English. :)

Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA