Jane Neville's tomb

I posted my comments on the latest genealogical adventure of Doug
Richardson on another thread; I hope people will read it. But since
there seems to be a lot of interest in this topic, I am going to
reiterate my offer: I am going to contact the College Of Arms in
London and let them decide what the evidence means. There is a
solution here. It may not seem that way because people are trotting
out theories, speculation and everything but the proverbial kitchen
sink as "evidence" including stuff that apparently has since
disappeared.

Before I do this, though, I want to say in unambiguous terms what it is
that I am going to ask them to review. Specifically, it is a
photograph of a portion of a large scroll; the portion contains the
part of the scroll which has a drawing of Jane Neville's tomb with her

Tim Powys-Lybbe...

A shield in the middle is a shield of pretence which indicates that the
armiger (a man) has married an heiress and their children will be able
to quarter her father's arms. The point here is that I have never seen
or heard of a shield of pretence on a lady's arms, it is specifically
something that only appears on a chap's arms. However these were still
early days of heraldry and the rules were no so clear cut as they are
now.

Certainly all the shields of pretence (that I have examined) on the
pre-1485 garter arms have been used in the above way, indicating that
there was a fairly strong rule on this even then.

So my question would then be: which chap is it who owns these arms?
Though it is still not clear where the lozenge is. (If it is a charge,
it might just be that it was a difference mark as Jane Neville's father
was a younger son. The Salisbury and Warwick Nevilles definitely used
a difference mark, a label though with different patterns on it, as they
too were of a cadet branch.)

arms clearly displayed at her feet. The drawing was made in 1604 when
Francis Thynne, then Lancaster Herald, for some reason not stated in
the text I have, put together a pedigree for
Sir Henry Griffith, whose son had no male issue, and thus the manor of
Burton Agnes descended through a collateral female line. In 1948 the
owner of the scroll took it to the Society of Antiquaries of London,
and it was from them I obtained their evaulation and the copies of the
photos. Anybody can do this via email and a credit card.

The photo clearly shows the lozenge on Jane's arms. It is not
difficult to see and is in the conventional diamond shape. Both
reference books on heraldry I have say that this indicates either a
spinster or a widow. You don't have to go on a "Raiders of the Lost

Tim Powys-Lybbe...

This is ambiguous, like the definitions of lozenge in one or two of the
heraldic lexicons. It is not clear whether this lozenge is:

(1) what these arms are on,

Or

(2) A charge on the arms which are on a shield of some sorts.

I wonder if you can put a copy of the picture on the web somewhere? if
you don't have web access, I could put it on my site if you can make
and e-mail me an electronic file of it. Or even you could make a good
photocopy and post that to me (in which case contact me privately and I
will give my postal address).

Ark" search.

I do not think it is fair that I should have to defend my position
against evidence I have never seen, that nobody knows its current
location, and which cannot be evaluated by anybody. I'm not going to
get into the Harliean Soc., county rectors, etc. Let's do this the
right way.

Jeff Chipman

Douglas Richardson...

Dear Jeff ~

The "right way" to do this is to get a copy of Walter Griffith II's
tabula obituum dated 1511 in which he specifically names his parents,
Walter I and Agnes, and grandparents, John and Katherine. According to
Rev. Stebbing Shaw, the tabula obituum is recorded in Harleian MSS.
1077, f. 94a. You should be able to easily obtain a copy of this
document from the British Library.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net