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=?iso-8859-1?Q?_Ebbes_of_Charenton_and_Eudes_of_D=E9ols?=
Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:39:52 +0000 (UTC)
soc.genealogy.medieval
previous
leovdpas...
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[snip]
Douglas Richardson...
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< > Chronologically and logistically, it fits for Alix de Burgundy to
be
< > Mahaut de Mehun's grandmother, as Alix is known to have lived in
Berry
< > with her second husband, Eudes de D=E9ols, as did the Mehun family.
< > Also, Alix appears to have had children by her D=E9ols marriage.
< As had been pointed out already, Alix of Burgundy (de Bourgogne, NOT
"de
< Burgundy", in French) was married only once. No medieval source has
been cited that < suggests a second marriage for Alix. The claim rests
only on internet genealogies that < are plainly mistaken.
West Winter who published a lengthy study of the descendants of
Charlemagne plainly states that Alix of Burgundy married "2ndly, ca.
1175, Eudes de D=E9ols, Seigneur de Ch=E2teau-Meilland," and La Ch=E2tre,
son of Ebles II, Prince de la D=E9oloise and Denise d'Amboise, by whom
she
had two children (see his references XIII.457, XIV.119, and
XV.159-XV.160). Mr. Winter was fully fluent in French, his mother
being a native of France.
Mr. Winter cites various sources, among them: Brandenburg, Winkhaus,
Beauchet-Filleau, de la Mure, and Histoire de Charenton (M=E9m.,
Societ=E9 ... de l'Ouest, 2nd series, X/186ff.
< Two completely distinct men of different names, neither of whom was
married to Alix of < Burgundy. Ebbes of Charenton was in fact her
brother-in-law, married to Archambaud's < sister Guiberge of Bourbon.
These are not unknown personages, their history and
< genealogy is on the record where a professional genealogist
researching the subject
< ought to have found the correct details before now.
Mr. Winter correctly shows that Ebles VI de Charenton was married to
Alix of Burgundy's sister-in-law, Guiberge of Bourbon, by whom he had
four children (see his references XIII.458, XIV.665j-XIV.665m). Ebles
VI de Charenton was a separate and distinct person from Eudes de
D=E9ols.
If Alix of Burgundy did not marry Eudes de D=E9ols as you have alleged,
I'm sure that will become evident once the four sources I've posted for
the history of D=E9ols and the D=E9ols family are properly examined.
According to H. Petitjean de Maransange, there is also information on
the D=E9ols family in Chaumeau and La Thaumassi=E8re.
In any case, I note that you gave no source to support your statement
above that this marriage "rests only on internet genealogies." In
point of fact, you are wrong. Mr. Winter is not an internet source.
And, he certainly did not make up the marriage.
One request: Please keep you posts civil, polite, honest, and
collegial. Making disparaging remarks about professional genealogists
is unnecessary. We all make mistakes, as do I, as do you. If Mr.
Winter is wrong about this marriage, so be it.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Douglas Richardson...
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< > Chronologically and logistically, it fits for Alix de Burgundy to
be
< > Mahaut de Mehun's grandmother, as Alix is known to have lived in
Berry
< > with her second husband, Eudes de D=E9ols, as did the Mehun family.
< > Also, Alix appears to have had children by her D=E9ols marriage.
< As had been pointed out already, Alix of Burgundy (de Bourgogne, NOT
"de has been cited that rests only on internet genealogies that
West Winter who published a lengthy study of the descendants of
Charlemagne plainly states that Alix of Burgundy married "2ndly, ca.
1175, Eudes de D=E9ols, Seigneur de Ch=E2teau-Meilland," and La Ch=E2tre,
son of Ebles II Prince de la D=E9oloise & Denise d'Amboise, by whom she
had two children (see his references XIII.457, XIV.119, and
XV.159-XV.160). Mr. Winter was fully fluent in French, his mother
being a native of France.
Mr. Winter cites various sources, among them: Brandenburg, Winkhaus,
Beauchet-Filleau, de la Mure, and Histoire de Charenton (M=E9m.,
Societ=E9 ... de l'Ouest, 2nd series, X/186ff.
married to Alix of
to Archambaud's personages, their history and professional genealogist researching the subject the correct details before now.
Mr. Winter correctly shows that Ebles VI de Charenton was married to
Alix of Burgundy's sister-in-law, Guiberge of Bourbon, by whom he had
four children (see his references XIII.458, XIV.665j-XIV.665m). Ebles
VI de Charenton was a separate and distinct person from Eudes de
D=E9ols.
If Alix of Burgundy did not marry Eudes de D=E9ols as you allege, I'm
sure that will become evident once the four sources I've posted for the
history of D=E9ols and the D=E9ols family are properly examined. In any
case, I note that you gave no source to support your statement above
that this marriage "rests only on internet genealogies." In point of
fact, you are wrong. Mr. Winter is not an internet source. And, he
certainly did make up the marriage.
One request: Please keep you posts civil, polite, honest, and
collegial. Making disparaging remarks about professional genealogists
is unnecessary. We all make mistakes, as do I, as do you. If Mr.
Winter is wrong about this marriage, so be it.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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leovdpas...
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As had been pointed out already, Alix of Burgundy (de Bourgogne, NOT "de Burgundy", in French) was married only once. She was widowed in 1169, and her sole husband's father Archambaud VII of Bourbon died in 1171. From that time Alix ruled Bourbon on behalf of her daughter Mathilde as a veiled widow, later becoming abbess of Fontevrault. By 1183 she was mother-in-law to Gaucher of Salins, as noted by Geoffroy de Vigeois. No medieval source has been cited that suggests a second marriage for Alix. The claim rests only on internet genealogies that are plainly mistaken.
The alleged second husband has now changed name and lineage anyway. Richardson originally claimed that this was Ebles of Charenton, who belonged to a junior line of the Déols family, descended from Raoul II le Chauve (died 1012) through his sixth son Ebbes I of La Châtre. On the other hand his distant cousin Eudes of Déols, seigneur of Boussac & Châteaumeillant (son of Ebbes II of Déols who died 1160), unaccountably substituted for him in the message quoted above, belonged to the senior line descended from Raoul II through his eldest son Eudes I l'Ancien of Déols (died 1044).
Two completely distinct men of different names, neither of whom was married to Alix of Burgundy. Ebbes of Charenton was in fact her brother-in-law, married to Archambaud's sister Guiberge of Bourbon. These are not unknown personages, their history and genealogy is on the record where a professional genealogist researching the subject ought to have found the correct details before now.
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