Black and white photography experiment

I have put two virtually identical photos on my website.
The first was taken using the black and white setting on my camera (Fuji
S5500). The second was taken in colour and de-saturated using Adobe

pmj...

pmj...

Ah!
A nice little experiment/test!
:-)

Photoshop 7. No adjustments were made to either photograph.
Apart from the slightly different viewing angle, I can see very little
difference in either photograph.

pmj...

Well, to my untrained (& definitely *not* artistic!) eye, there's
quite a definite difference between them?...

But then I'm the sort of person who cannot see the point of converting a
perfectly good colour photo to monochrome anyway. To me that is just

pmj...

Well, yes!
I've often wondered what the "appeal" is in all the Black & White
Photos, that so many "arty" type places & people seem to go to great
pains to produce!

fiddling for fiddling's sake :-))

pmj...

Yep!

See what you think

pmj...

My first thought/question is why (on what basis/theory etc,)
did you choose to use the "De-Saturation" Option, in particular,
(out of all the different Options available) in your Image Editing
Program?

The way I understand it, there are *loads* of (well, several,
at least!) different ways to make a Picture Black & White -
actually it's (usually) "GreyScale", rather than stark Black
& White (MonoChrome) - & (I gather) just applying a "De-Saturation"
to it, isn't usually the most effective way.

MCC...

De-saturation is the quickest way!

pmj...

Maybe, but that isn't the idea, surely?
Isn't the general idea to get a Pic that "looks" nice?
:-)

I know that PaintShop Pro offers various different ways of getting
a GreyScale (Black & White) Pic & I assume that PhotoShop also has
various different ways of doing it?

MCC...

It does - I could have gone Image>Mode>Grayscale
I could have used Lab mode, discarding the colours or I could have used
Channels or if I had loads of time for fiddling I could have used the
Channel Mixer, but the end result would have been much the same - a photo
with 256 shades grey (or gray as the Yanks insist!).

pmj...

But the end result (of all those different ways of doing it) most
definitely *isn't* the same!!!

Simply De-Saturating a Colo(u)r Pic doesn't (usually) give
a "realistic" sort of Gre/ay Scale Image - the other ways are
normally (from what I can gather) better (more "life-like"? or
"natural"? or "realistic"?)

The Human Eye is more sensitive to some Colors than others, so when
Converting a Pic into Grey Scale, it needs to be done so that the
different (original) *Colors* are turned into different *Levels*
of Black/Grey/White, according to what the original Color actually
was, rather than simply all being converted to a given level according
to their brightness.

Please take all of this as genuine discussion!
I'm *not* trying to pick fault, or criticise.

I'm genuinely interested in the various different ideas (& principles)
that apply to this sort of thing.

I've always been interested in things like that - not really from
an "artistic" point of view though!

I just like to know what can be done & how & why & the various
reasons behind it all.

andon...

Still can't see that link in any browser :-(

Faolan...

Mike can I get a copy of the image to show you some more examples of
monochrome conversions?

MCC...

If you want I can put the original on my website and you can download it
from there - 2 Mb.

I do a lot of B/W work and I will try and explain why you should shoot

pmj...

I thought you might!
:-)

colour first and convert later... That is unless you are a event

pmj...

& *that's* what I was getting at, when I asked my various Questions,
prompted by Tykes Q about whether yo ushot your Pic in B&W or color.

I was hoping yo uwould come back with a reply about how (& why
& what method you used) to do it.

Yes, some Digital Cameras can do the Conversion, but it stands to
reason that (unlike Film) it's obviously far better (more accurate
etc,) to do the Conversion in a proper Image Editing Application or
Utility, rather than trying to rely on theCameras conersion.

photographer or don't understand the arcane secrets of PS or PSP.

pmj...

But it doesn't take long to find out how to Convert to Greyscale
using something like that, does it?

MCC...

Thanks but no thanks. Just not interested. And the tutor at my PaintShop
evening class knows it :-) Manipulation for its own sake and not to
improve the photo.

Desaturation in PS is worst possible method... The in camera shot shows

pmj...

That's what I thought & why I asked why MCC had used that
particular method.

more contrast, better detail and luminosity. Though the image shows the
white a bit too much.

pmj...

Yep & if it had been done in an Image Editing Program, (using
something other than "De-Saturation", then the results would have
been at least as good, if not better?

MCC...

Looks OK to me. Maybe your monitor is set differently to mine.

Or if people wants me to use one my shots ;)

andon...

Just goes to show what twaddle I post.

I think I will submit all my pics via Faolan.
Sounds like a far easier plan for getting my
images sharpened up :-)

MCC...

I am not interested in black and white photography. I just cannot see the
point in spoiling a perfectly good colour photo by converting it to
monochrome. In my opinion it does not improve the photo one bit.

Pam the goose...

I'd use the B/W setting on the camera to get your B/Ws, it
sparkles more than the PhotoShop one.

MCC...

Yes, I prefer the photo straight from the camera, now that I've studied
them both more closely.

The eaves and paintwork of the houses are more clearly
defined in the B/W than in the PhotoShopped version.

MCC...

I think the difference is caused by having more sky in the first photo,
Pam. I'm going to try the same experiment again with the camera locked on a
tripod, so that the view is identical. And I shall set the exposure and
shutter speed manually so that they too are identical.

It's a good camera - or is it the photographer that's good?
;-))

MCC...

Both

Rabbit...

Have you taken it down ? I get ..........
Not Found
The requested URL /bw/bw.html was not found on this server.

MCC...

Yes, took them down intending to replace them with two taken using
identical viewing areas and identical shutter speeds and exposure values,
but before I could do so the weather went all hazy and po-faced on me.
Maybe tomorrow.

Rabbit...

OK thanks Mike, sorry I missed them.

MCC...

They were nothing special, just a couple of shots taken out of the bedroom
window (again!). As I'd never used the black and white setting, and as
there was some discussion of it in here, I thought I would have a try.
It worked OK but it was very boring. As I've already said - I can't see the

Rabbit...

Oh I don't know about boring, it has made me wonder if my camera had a B/W
setting and given the replies to your original I would have been interested
in seeing the difference.

point in converting a perfectly good coloured photograph to monochrome.

Ali...

One reason is to reproduce it (many times) on a black and white printer or
photocopier (for flyers, newsletters, etc).

MCC...

Why would you need to do that? When I print a photograph on my black and
white laser it comes out black and white ;-)

Ali...

Yes, that does happen, but a discussed earlier in the thread, different
conversion methods give different results, so it's sometimes better to do
the conversion first, rather than just accepting what comes out of the
printer.

Another is to produce a 'then and now' pair with an existing B&W photo.

Still, if the arty-crafty types are happy then who am I to spoil their fun?
;-)

Mothy...

Mike,
I wouldn't habitually convert a colour photograph to black and white
but just occasionally the colour can be distracting. Black and white is
about high contrast, mood, and placing greater emphasis on the subject.
Even desaturating a colour photograph leaving just a hint of colour can
give a pictures a little more interest. It is sometimes interesting to
try and achieve the style of old photographs. For example in my village
there are parts that have not changed in a couple of hundred years, you
can recover some of the period by taking pictures and making them
greyscale or adding a tint, fade, noise etc. Messing about, sure, but
the end result is quite pleasing and can look quite authentic.

Rabbit...

Or even vice versa. I remember great plans to turn old movie classics into
colour. The snippets I saw weren't the same. Mind you I remember watching
WW1 in colour, that was actually quite impressive if a bit * not right*
somehow.

Aries...

ah, now we know ;)

Tyke...

Can't fetch up the link Mike.

Must admit that I am partial to B&W photography.

Apparently a lot of tv cameras at sporting events use b&w
monitors..........easier to follow the ball.

MCC...

If you read through the thread, Tyke, you'll see that I've taken the images
off my website. I did intend replacing them but the weather worked against
me. Maybe do something tomorrow, maybe not.

Tyke...

I was just quickly scanning posts so I did not see that the pics were
removed Mike.
Off to do some jbex now :-)

Aries...

The page cannot be found :(

Rabbit...

You and I haven't been told the secret password ;-)

http://www.mikeclouston.co.uk/bw/bw.html